Real ID coming soon

Seventy feet is the length of my house.

Some threads, not necessarily this one, have had contributors indicating some concern that "the government" could find you anytime they wanted by triangulating on this credit card size ID transmitter.

So, they can find you if you get within 70 feet of one.

There is a brick wall that the technology will run in to pretty quickly. Not, to say there may not be a quantum leap breakthrough in miniature power generation that makes batteries obsolete, or "subspace channels":), but that is what it will take to have the privacy invasion that some are paranoid of.
 
but that is what it will take to have the privacy invasion that some are paranoid of.
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But you would be okay with the govt being able to pull up your ID number and say "okay, here is where he has been going, when he goes there, and how long he stays. He was last pinged at XXX x street one hour ago." :confused:
 
But you would be okay with the govt being able to pull up your ID number and say "okay, here is where he has been going, when he goes there, and how long he stays. He was last pinged at XXX x street one hour ago."
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The government nor anybody else, except my wife on occasion, cares what I am doing.
 
Well, sure they might not care about YOU. But someone who dares make a peep about a policy they don't like?

Someone who is a...gun owner, if Hillbama gets elected? Sure they'll want to keep track of them, why, they could be dangerous.

Do you see what I mean about the FUDD attitude? This is exactly the same as the people who say "Well, as long as it doesn't affect my old double-barrel huntin' gun, they can ban it all." ...If it doesn't affect you, you don't care.

It doesn't affect you...yet. But it could, with the changing of a 0 to a 1, once it's in place. By then, it'd be too late.
 
I know this is cliche but it is still very true...
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
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Someone who is a...gun owner, if Hillbama gets elected? Sure they'll want to keep track of them, why, they could be dangerous.
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I wouldn't doubt Hillary authorizing such a thing. But when you think about it, what does it matter if Hillary authorizes the use of tracking for X and Huckabee authorizes it for a different reason? Our liberty is still impacted and we are still screwed. Choices? We have no choices!
 
The government nor anybody else, except my wife on occasion, cares what I am doing.
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I wouldnt be so sure the government doesn't care what you're doing. The only way they don't care, is after they've already looked at your data and decided to move on to somebody else. They always have the option to come back & look again.

"I'm not doing anything wrong, they can spy on me if they want", getting tired of hearing that one. When you realize their definition of wrongdoing can change to include ordinary behavior, maybe you won't want them spying on you like that. Today's legal activity is tomorrow's crime.

Do you see what I mean about the FUDD attitude? This is exactly the same as the people who say "Well, as long as it doesn't affect my old double-barrel huntin' gun, they can ban it all."
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+1 to that
 
I'd like to know why people think they'd be immune to government error, at that.

Citizen 119837388432445543 committed an act of terrorism. You are citizen 119837388432445541.

A poorly skilled functionary hit the wrong number just before quitting time.

Oops. What do you do now? That RealID controls every aspect of your life, and Bad Things will appear on everything from a police cruiser laptop to a loan officer's flatpanel. You're screwed.

Try to get it fixed? With the level of bureaucracy it'd entail? Ha!
 
Playboypenguinwrites:

I know this is cliche but it is still very true...

Quote:
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

-----------------

Re that, old but true saws sometimes described as cliches, remaining true, Ben Franklin's 1759 observation which I mentioned earlier, Post #70, and John Donnes comment, later the title of a Hemmingway novel are two other such items. I suspect that there are others too.
 
RedneckFur, yes and no. Drivers licensing and vehicle registration are mandatory for commercial purposes. That's within the Federal Commerce Power while in interstate commerce. It is mandatory under State Powers for intrastate commerce.

As Edward said, it was intially a voluntary thing for private citizens. So as not to derail this thread entirely, read this bit of research (shameless plug for my own work).

There is actually no basis for ID cards for private citizens, within the framework of Constitutional Law (State or Federal). There is however, a basis for voluntary regulation.

Licensing, Registration, ID's... They are all about one thing: Control.
 
A word search for "RFID" in the new regulation (links provided by Antipitas) found "RFID" is used 9 times.

DHS is not requiring that States employ RFID in REAL ID Act cards; rather the only technology required by the final rule is the use of the PDF4 17 bar code, which most States already use on their cards.
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A few commenters noted that the DHS Data Privacy and Integrity Advisory Committee and the Government Accountability Office both advised against using RFID technology.
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RFID chips are found in the WHTI (Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative).

The privacy groups and individuals also filed comments on a number of other privacy issues such as redress, the confidentiality of the address for certain at-risk individuals, and the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHT1)-compliant card and its use of Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technology.
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What is the WHTI?

Section 7209 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, as amended', requires the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State, to develop and implement a plan to require travelers entering the United States to present a passport, other document, or combination of documents, that are "deemed by the Secretary of Homeland Security to be sufficient to denote identity and citizenship." This DHS and Department of State (DOS) initiative is referred to as the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI). DHS and DOS have issued several regulations implementing WHTI travel document requirements at air ports of entry, and proposing documents acceptable for cross border travel at land and sea ports-of-entry. For additional information on the WHTI rulemaking actions, please see 71 FR 6841 1 (Nov. 24,2006)(final air rule) and 72 FR 35087 (proposed land and sea rule).
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What are the WHTI rules?

In June 2007, DHS published a NPRM [Notice of Proposed Rulemaking] to implement the land and sea phases of WHTI. While DHS acknowledges the desire of some, but not all, States and other commenters to use a REAL ID-compliant driver's license or identification card as a WHTI-compliant border crossing document, DHS did not propose that a REAL ID-compliant driver's license or identification card serve as a WHTI-compliant document in that NPRM and does not propose such in this rulemaking.
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It looks like we might all have to wait a while before we get RFID chips in our REAL ID cards.
 
Another point or two about RFID locating and I'll get off of it.

For it to have any range it can't be passive.If it is powered, solid state devices are about 50 % efficient, which means for every miliwatt it transmits it gives off an equal amout in heat. How do you keep it from cooking itself. If it only powers up when it is pinged ,that is another IC. Plus if you have to ping it to turn it on, how did you know the carrier was up to any mischief, and if he is he would have disabled the card anyway.

For it to locate, all the transceivers, like GPS satellites, would have to have it's individual atomic clock to be precise enough to measure the difference in distance. Since the speed of a radio wave is essentially the speed of light, trying to use a common atomic clock would create too much error.

Or, if you want to triangulate, you would have to have huge beam or parabolic antennas. With three of these able to determine a particular direction you can establish a point. But, it can't be done with omnidirectional antennas. With those as with cell phones, the best they could do is tell you which one you are closest to and a general area, not a few feet or better as with GPS.

RFID may be of use going through a checkoint of some sort, but as far as a tracking device in the field, even if technology is developed the cost/gain will be upside down.

ID cards may be bad for many reasons, but RFID location is not one of them.
 
ID cards may be bad for many reasons, but RFID location is not one of them.
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Are you not paying attention?

They can still be used to track you...just not though conventional GPS type tracking. They could still be easily used to record your movements.

So, yes, RFID is a bad thing.
 
I haven't read this whole thread, but to those worried about government tracking (a very legitimate concern), I think there are much more threatening technologies on the horizon than RFIDs.

If you have a transceiver in an object like an ID card, simply keep it in a wallet lined with aluminum foil, or put it in another conductive container. Yup -- just like the "tinfoil hat" everyone's always talking about! That forms a Faraday cage and will prevent any communication of the transceiver with anything until you remove it from the container.

What do I think is more threatening? Biometrics. Cameras and computer systems that can automatically scan faces at a distance, or identify you by your gait, or a combination of these methods. This is not paranoia, folks; this stuff IS under development. Eventually they'll be able to set up cameras everywhere (at least in urban areas) and track your every move automatically.

Other technology under development includes cameras that operate in the terahertz frequency. These can see right through your clothes, making you appear as if you're naked. Thus, they can be used to strip-search you from a distance. I'm pretty sure these already exist, though I don't know how widespread their use is.

Anyway, this stuff is off-topic, so I won't go into it further. But those concerned about Big Brother should be worried about this stuff.
 
Are you not paying attention?
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I see I have wasted my time trying to explain why they cannot use this to track you.

Or, perhaps you would like to plot out the number of tranceivers required to track people with a range of only 70 feet.
 
ZeroJunk, you're just not getting it. You're thinking in terms of old-style field tracking.

What's being pointed out is that arches can be built into doorways, transcievers in kiosks, tollbooths, anywhere.

10:01 AM - Entered North Mall - West Mall Entrance
10:15 AM - North Mall Food Court
11:00 AM - Near North Mall Children's Area
11:30 AM - Left North Mall Children's Area (FLAG - no children on DHS records, possible child molester)
12:05 PM - Left North Mall - West Mall Entrance
12:15 PM - Entered First Bank
12:18 PM - Left First Bank
12:30 PM - Near Anti-Crime Initiative RFID Point - Al's Gun Shop
1:30 PM - Left Al's Gun Shop (FLAG - Likely firearms purchase, confirm with BATFE)

...etc. Oh, and if you're with a group, if you stay with that group, that fact would be recorded as well as you all passed through the same checkpoints. Freedom of assembly, "conspiring to...", etc...

You're still being tracked. Either the government could misuse it, or you'd be sold to by people with an even more invasive consumer profile. "We saw you visited McDonalds three times this week...Try Burger King!"

And a transceiver can be something as simple as a strip that goes around a doorframe, connected to a tiny processor and wireless network link. We use them at work for inventory tracking, recording items as they pass through cargo doors, and that's exactly what they are. You can't even see it's there.
 
ZeroJunk, you're just not getting it. You're thinking in terms of old-style field tracking.
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Your concern is nonsense. Do you have any idea of the cost to implement that many transceivers.That many antenna arrays.

Do you not understand the multiple ways that they can be disabled.

Do you not realize that if they did implement such a system there would be an instant cottage industry for people to make a jamming device.

Your entire paranoid vision of this has as many holes as Swiss cheeze.

The electromagnetic spectrum and the laws of physics that govern it will not change.

If there is an RFID tracking system in my lifetime I will kiss your holographic butt on whatever live format is contemporary.
 
Cost? The things are mass-produced in China as solid-state solutions now! For pennies on the dollar!

Even warehouse RFID arch systems are dropping in price.

Pick up any industrial catalog, you'll see low-cost RFID checkpoints for inventory control, with a tape antenna to put around the doorway, and a tiny control unit with an 802.11g antenna, and software to run elsewhere on the network. That's IT.

It's CHEAP. What's with this 1950's perception of how much things cost?
 
It's CHEAP. What's with this 1950's perception of how much things cost?
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The government is going to have volunteers install these devices for free. The building owner is going to be forced by some law to allow this. If you fry your ID in the microwave or sandwich it between magnetic strips you will get a stiff fine or 30 days in jail. If you carry a device that interferes with the ID signal you get 6 months in jail. If you use somebody elses card you get 6 years in jail. If you alter or make fake cards you get 30 days in the electric chair.If you don't have a card at all you get shot on the spot.

But, I see your point. I was examining the requirements of a system that can tell where you are at, not where you have been.
 
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