Real ID coming soon

gun ownership information is not information collected by the government for the new ID
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No, not yet...

But it wouldn't take that much for it to happen. A democrat president and a willing Congress could easily pass legislation that all firearm transactions (even completely intrastate) are to be carried out through a licensed dealer with identification necessarily proven by the national ID card.
 
so you will be unable to fly without one......IF IT WORKS, no more hijacking.


so the terrorists being the persistent little buggers they are create another oklahoma city bombing scenerio.........what would the feds suggest then, a national checkpoint network?

:barf::barf::barf:
 
so you will be unable to fly without one......IF IT WORKS, no more hijacking.
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Nope, that is absolute crap. Where as Americans could be required to have one for domestic flights international travelers would still be free from this requirement.

So that whole idea is stupid and makes it look like there must be other reasons the govt is so gung-ho about getting them. They would do almost nothing to prevent illegal immigration, hostility from foreigners, etc. so all they would do is create a single networkable data base with everyone info on it.
 
Yeah, I'm not usually vocal about L&E on the forums, but this REAL ID really hurts my heart. I am APALLED that there are people here who support this.

To those people, why not take a look at the other successful govt. run initiatives or programs or whatever and see how well it works, and then apply that to REAL ID.

Here are some for you, War on Drugs, education system, DHS & TSA (and please don't say, "well we haven't had another terrorist attack have we?", that's because they don't WANT to yet). I'm sure you can think of some more.

You are obviously gun owners if you're here, so why not apply the same logic the antis use to try to ban guns? You are in favor of REAL ID for security issues, but you wouldn't be in favor of banning guns from citizens for safety issues? They are using the same logic and instilling fear in us to get concensual compliance.

Also, no need to look at Nazi Germany, like I said before, just look at the US in the same time period with the Japanese American internment (I hate hyphenated American but had to for reference). I mean realistically, no one cared back then because they weren't white, but let's apply that to the future and see how potentially far reaching REAL ID can be. You'll care when "John and Jane Smith" get their doors kicked in "mistakenly", or when they are escorted into the airport room the same way. But like they said about Nazi Germany, "when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up".
 
I do get kind of nervous about cards like this which have such important data for a driving license as your occupation, your religion

This is all Sensenbrenner doing who forced that committee to do what he wanted. The same guy who put forward the Patriot Act, Uniting and Strengthening America Act, wanted to crack down substantial on most things on television and pretty much every other repressive act put forward for the past 7 years.
 
Aside from my cell phone, Lo-Jack, On-star, ATM cards, and so on, I keep wondering why the FBI and other letter agencies would want to follow me anywhere. Work, Walmart and home and they've got 95% of my schedule aready.

ATF already knows where my machineguns are stored.....
 
I dont think Louisiana has adopted laws (yet) but we did petition for appeal

and its hard to belive with so many states against this that it wont be.
 
May I bring up a couple of issues for those of you that think Real ID is a good thing, or not a big deal?

Do you, or do you not, have a right to privacy? That is, in regards to Government.

There is the right to your private beliefs (1st); The right to the privacy of your home (3rd); The privacy of your person and possessions (4th) and the right against self-incrimination (5th - which further provides for the privacy of your personal information). Of course, there is also that elusive 9th amendment (Justice Goldberg in Griswold v Connecticut (1965)). The Supreme Court, as early as 1923 (Meyer v Nebraska) and up to the present, has broadly construed the "Liberty" guarantee of the 14th amendment as containing a broad right of privacy.

The right is not just implied, it has been assumed by the Court to exist, as part and parcel of our Liberties.

The Government simply has no constitutional authority to collect this data from each and every one of us. "National Security" is not narrow enough despite any compelling interest to violate or impede the right (Griswold and Roe - Strict Judicial Scrutiny).

Then there is the right to Travel. Nowhere listed in the Constitution nor is it implied, yet the right to travel has always been one of the "Liberties" of an American. The Supreme Court in Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116 (1958) at 125-126, was very expressive on this matter:
The right to travel is a part of the `liberty' of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. . . . Freedom of movement across frontiers in either direction, and inside frontiers as well, was a part of our heritage. Travel abroad, like travel within the country, . . . may be as close to the heart of the individual as the choice of what he eats, or wears, or reads. Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of values.
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[note: If you think I have left something of import out of the above quote (the elispses), let me know. I have the entire quote and I assure you, nothing was left out, except further admonishment to the government.]

Yet, there is still one other area that has not been considered.

The Federal Government does not now and has never had any control over Drivers licensing by the States nor its recognition from one State to another. While the Feds may make a claim over interstate travel in commercial endeavors, it has no claim on personal travel. None. Zip. Nada. All recognition of such, has been through the States and mutual reciprocity compacts. Sound slightly familar?

A national ID, via Drivers Licensing or State ID is wholly beyond the Constitutional power of the Federal Government. A Single national database of personal information on each and every individual citizen of this country is also wholly beyond such authority. It is beyond tha pale of Federalism, that the central government should even suggest such.

ETA: Regardless of whether or not we already have a defacto national ID through said State licenses, I'm against this as a matter of federalism.
 
A Single national database of personal information on each and every individual citizen of this country is also wholly beyond such authority.
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I agree with you in theory, but a basis for that is already in place, otherwise how do you explain Social Security and the IRS?
 
I was born before 1964, so I have until 2017 to comply under the final guidelines. So, I figure I have 9 years for the government to screw the whole thing up and change their minds. I have no need for Federal Buildings and hate to fly these days, so I'll just be out sailing and .......Ooops, overboard.

Mike
 
What information about me would be included in the Real ID database that is not already included in the IRS database?
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Unregistered, it's not about whether or not it has the SAME info, or DIFFERENT info, or MORE info; it's that they plan to use this one little card to regulate just about everything you are able to do. At first, it's to get on board a plane, you can bet trains, boats, and buses will be added to that as well. It's to regulate entering of federal buildings, well the Post Office is a federal building is it not? Imagine having to scan in, just to go to the dam PO.

Yeah, that doesn't "sound" like a big deal. And that's exactly how they want you to see it. It won't be a "big deal" until it's too late.

I haven't put it so eloquently or with the backing of excerpts from court cases, but Antipitas research proves what is common sense. The mere fact that we are even discussing something like REAL ID is beyond worrisome.

And to use the arguments that your info is already known should just tell you that it isn't necessary. Why make another large database that will need another large govt. agency and LARGE sums of taxpayer money to fund, maintain, and fix? They are saying "why not?", and you guys are going along with it.

Like I said, the illegal immigrant argument is BS, illegals don't have social security numbers. It is not required for them to provide it to be a busboy, or a dishwasher, or a laborer. It's not like he's faking a management position at CitiFinancial. REAL ID or not, the hospital isn't to going to refuse to deliver an illegal's baby or treat an injury, it's going to be on our dime regardless, and the taxes to fund REAL ID is in addition to what we're already paying.
 
I don't believe for a minute that it would be any kind of convenience. Every government agency I have ever had dealings with (including the Army) has been so screwed up that they couldn't find their a$$ with both hands.

I've had to fill out lots of government forms and they always ask for the same information. If they were smart, they could take the information once and be done with it.

If I'm ever forced to get this abomination of an ID (I'm in SC and we've already passed a law against it), it will stay in a drawer until I actually need it.
 
So the constitutional approach doesn't seem to work...

Directly from the language of the bill:
(4) SECRETARY- The term `Secretary' means the Secretary of Homeland Security

SEC. 205. AUTHORITY.

(a) Participation of Secretary of Transportation and States- All authority to issue regulations, set standards, and issue grants under this title shall be carried out by the Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the States.
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So what are those regulations and standards?

We don't know. 3 years after this has passed and DHS still hasn't let anyone know what is required. Last spring, DHS issued the regs. The States objected as they hadn't been "consulted" per the law. The regs were withdrawn (only because they were unworkable). Now we are waiting for new regs to be issued and still the DHS won't consult with the States.

With that in mind, here are the minimum requirements that each ID will have:
SEC. 202. MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUANCE STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.

(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:

(1) The person's full legal name.
(2) The person's date of birth.
(3) The person's gender.
(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.
(5) A digital photograph of the person.
(6) The person's address of principle residence.
(7) The person's signature.
(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.
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Further, there are requirements and restrictions on how this data is to be verified at the State level, before being approved by the Federal Government and before being submitted to the Federal Government.

[NB: Public law 109-13 may be downloaded here. The relevent sections are towards the end of the PDF - Starts at the bottom of page 311 and ends at top of page 316, as the PDF sees it.]

What is problematic is that "for any other purposes" clause:
SEC. 201. DEFINITIONS
(3) OFFICIAL PURPOSE.—The term ‘‘official purpose’’ includes but is not limited to accessing Federal facilities, boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft, entering nuclear power plants, and any other purposes that the Secretary shall determine.
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Al, thank you for the two posts that show clearly why this issue is monumentally important.

A number of years ago, William J. Vizzard wrote a text titled, In the Cross Fire: A Political History of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms which, although rather apologetic about this agency, had some excellent points about how a bureaucracy functions. He explains how an agency head looks for methods to expand the agency's size, funding, and scope of authority. That may include clever interpretation of the law, exploitation of vagueness in limits on scope of authority, and of course lobbying congress for all of the above.

Viewing the law as you've listed it, Al, is pretty clear that even a dullard would be able to run up a pretty good sized and funded bureaucracy and remain within the law. There are no effective boundaries of any kind that I can detect.

And last, you're quite correct in stating that this law is patently unConstitutional on its face, and has been since day one.
 
Assuming further negotiations between the states and fedgov removed the unspecified database fields; and narrowed the scope so as to be palatable to the objecting states...the fundamental technology alone (RFID) provides a tool so powerful it WILL be implemented commercially (no question), and if incorporated in a mandatory, government issued real id; will be a no-brainer for government to piggyback on the commercial network, AND the most irresistible opportunity for abuse.

To restate my concern: Passive scanning of the real id, by the network of cheap commercial sensors which will be set up at entrances to buildings, stores, checkout aisles... heck, even coke machines :eek:

I'm reminded of a scene from the movie "Minority Report", where the interactive wall identifies the pedestrian passing by; and throws up ads based on the person's past documented purchasing behavior. Right now today, when I use my "vip card" at the grocery checkout, the system spits out coupons based on my past purchasing history. Multiply that technology by 100x. Powerful commercial incentive.

Here's a crude prototype using just an infrared people sensor, set up for fun.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/adwatch/...rt-future-sans-apple-and-microsoft-278474.php

Incorporate RFID, the appropriate database, and the Minority Report scenario is reality.

This network WILL be conscripted by .gov, just as cell phone towers and ATM's are conscripted now for law enforcement purposes. Often without warrants, thanks to Patriot Act.

Think my concerns are unjustified?

PS: Would a "Faraday cage wallet" be effective?
 
It's a very small step from real id to cashless society. Wouldn't that be wonderful to not have to worry about carrying cash anymore? You think it's hard now to get a bank to correct one of thier mistakes, just wait until cashless rolls in. It'll be impossible. After an abuse or two, it can be tweaked to you can't buy groceries, can't collect money from customers or employment. Hey, how come my gun related purchase is denied? I know I have money in there. Don't know? go do 6 weeks worth of letter writing and hope for the best? Uh huh.

But not to worry, a lot of States have legislation in place to deny this cards implementation. Don't worry be happy. Then all it will take is another big attack from the so called terrorists to steamroll it in. Possibly even martial law. Wanna go to work or go buy diapers for your kid? Take your chip serf!

You're either with us or against us (GWB).

Those 800+ FEMA camps aren't there to decorate the skyline. Most will choose the chip (card) in order to be able to (have the hope) live, and for a misguided but well intentioned show of patriotism, to show they're not a criminal. Is it possible that America could be headed towards a holocaust of its own?
 
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