Illegal Aliens rallying across US today
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
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I don't know what business you're in but what makes you think that non-english speaking countries "default" to english when speaking with each other? You simply could not be more wrong. I worked 40 years in foreign countries. It is very normal in France to have a meeting with Germans in English. The French won't speak German and the Germans won't speak French...simple really. Same if Poles meet in France...the language is English. Too many examples to list. My business was TV industry.
Yes, the French hate to speak German even more than English.
English is the world default business language...period. Not saying that is as it should be, just reporting a fact.
Redworm, it being hard to gather data on the subject, would you not agree that if one is going to learn a foreign language, save for the language of a neighboring country, learning English serves quite often as a "language of business"?
I posit that it's a bit like when you look at trade statistics. #1 predictor for your best trading buddy is locality, distance...but U.S. is disproportionately represented, and can often overcome distance. Similarly with English. If you're going to go to on a tour around Asia, from Thailand to Malaysia to China to Korea to Japan and you can only learn one language, what would it be? Of course, many Koreans will know Chinese and be able to speak it, but English serves as the most common currency internationally, even if locally it may not be. Would you disagree?
I posit that it's a bit like when you look at trade statistics. #1 predictor for your best trading buddy is locality, distance...but U.S. is disproportionately represented, and can often overcome distance. Similarly with English. If you're going to go to on a tour around Asia, from Thailand to Malaysia to China to Korea to Japan and you can only learn one language, what would it be? Of course, many Koreans will know Chinese and be able to speak it, but English serves as the most common currency internationally, even if locally it may not be. Would you disagree?
Don't know what to tell you. Yes, if French are talking to French...then for sure it is French. Same with Germany, Italy, Etc. Otherwise it is normally English. Always some out of the norm cases. I worked with a French guy that spoke fluent German. He was raised on the French German border that changed hands during wars, but that is an exception. Now Poland is a little special. A lot of Poland was German land, and you do find many in Poland that speak German. In Switzerland they speak French and German, and others. So it is not 100%.
International air travel is as said. Must use English for tower communication. Mexican pilot that calls German tower has to use English...even if the German tower can speak Spanish.
glock glockler
New member
Unless some of you can show me a visa issued by a native American indian tribe of the time, your ancestors were no better than mine and you're just a later generation of their original "anchor babies".
Maybe it's just that I value my civilization more than the Native American's valued there, or maybe it's just that I recognize what happened to their civilization can happen to mine, but uncontrolled immigration will not benefit the US and there is nothing wrong with Americans demanding the govt do it's job and secure the borders and deport those who have entered illegally.
That being the case there is a tremendous amount of change we need to initiate here so that we are not p!ssing against the wind: we can throw illegals out but if the country is desireable for them they'll just come back.
We need to clean up our yard.
Maybe it's just that I value my civilization more than the Native American's valued there, or maybe it's just that I recognize what happened to their civilization can happen to mine, but uncontrolled immigration will not benefit the US and there is nothing wrong with Americans demanding the govt do it's job and secure the borders and deport those who have entered illegally.
That being the case there is a tremendous amount of change we need to initiate here so that we are not p!ssing against the wind: we can throw illegals out but if the country is desireable for them they'll just come back.
We need to clean up our yard.
1. What makes you think you can claim that you value your civilization more than the natives?
2. They were killed off by an invading force with superior firepower, superior transportation, superior tactics and superior diseases. How do you think that's in any way possible in the current situation?
glock glockler
New member
Redworm,
Pay attention to the use of the word "maybe"
, I don't presume to know what was going through the head of the average Native American, all I know is that open immigration didnt work out too well for them and I don't desire to shar their fate.
As for your second point, as Israel and it's surrounding nations know, a hostile populations can destabalize a country even more than an attacking army. When we have hordes of people who are in the country illegally making DEMANDS there is a problem. We cannot sustain unlimited immigration, especially from people who are economically most in need of the buffet of taxpayer funded govt services, and will thus vote for more of those doles.
Pay attention to the use of the word "maybe"
, I don't presume to know what was going through the head of the average Native American, all I know is that open immigration didnt work out too well for them and I don't desire to shar their fate.As for your second point, as Israel and it's surrounding nations know, a hostile populations can destabalize a country even more than an attacking army. When we have hordes of people who are in the country illegally making DEMANDS there is a problem. We cannot sustain unlimited immigration, especially from people who are economically most in need of the buffet of taxpayer funded govt services, and will thus vote for more of those doles.
It wasn't like they had a central government with an open immigration policy. The reality was a bunch of people with horses, guns and smallpox coming in and taking what they wanted. If the natives had had access to the same advantages the Europeans did in plant and animal domestication the colonials may have encountered much stronger opposition from a centralized society. It wasn't an "open immigration policy" because they didn't have "policies" to begin with.
My point is that assuming that they didn't care as much as you do about their civilization doesn't make sense. They cared, they were just overcome by those that cared more about taking what they wanted.
Our of curiosity, how exactly are illegals voting for anyone at all?
My point is that assuming that they didn't care as much as you do about their civilization doesn't make sense. They cared, they were just overcome by those that cared more about taking what they wanted.
Our of curiosity, how exactly are illegals voting for anyone at all?
glock glockler
New member
They cared, they were just overcome by those that cared more about taking what they wanted
Maybe we'll just rest with this statement and think about how it might relate to today's situation.
Our of curiosity, how exactly are illegals voting for anyone at all?
Just like others vote, why, is there some type of database that everyone's name is run throgh to make sure their citizens?
Maybe we'll just rest with this statement and think about how it might relate to today's situation.
Our of curiosity, how exactly are illegals voting for anyone at all?
Just like others vote, why, is there some type of database that everyone's name is run throgh to make sure their citizens?
Yes there is but I am not sure it is used for voting. The Basic Pilot Program can check for citizenship very fast & easy. A few cities are now mandating employers to use this program. I think Oklahoma City is one. This program runs similar to the NCIC crime computer system that any LEO uses if he makes a traffic stop. bogus SS# and fake ID's are easily caught.
JuanCarlos
New member
In theory, there should be. For instance, on my Montana voter registration form I have to provide either a valid MT driver's license or a Social Security Number. While I don't know if they do, they certainly could run either all or at least some random portion of those through the computer to verify citizenship status.
I then, of course, have to prevent valid ID when I show up to vote as well.
glock glockler
New member
madmag,
That just sounds like common sense, nah, I don't think we'll have much use for it
It would also be good for making sure people don't vote more than once and that dead people don't vote at all
yeah, the voter registry
In plenty of places you'd be surprised how easy it is to become registered and vote, I'd rather not go into specifics for obvious reasons but I've personally witnessed gross voter fraud that could be very easily corrected.
That just sounds like common sense, nah, I don't think we'll have much use for it
It would also be good for making sure people don't vote more than once and that dead people don't vote at allyeah, the voter registry
In plenty of places you'd be surprised how easy it is to become registered and vote, I'd rather not go into specifics for obvious reasons but I've personally witnessed gross voter fraud that could be very easily corrected.
Hey, I live just north of Chicago so I'm pretty familiar with the concept of voter fraud.
Vote early, vote often!But while it wouldn't surprise me if there are a few dozen or even maybe a few hundred illegals taking the time to fake identities well enough to register to vote I think it's extremely unlikely that millions of them are even bothering to care let alone bothering to go through the trouble.
This is another reason I don't support any kind of amnesty and automatic citizenship.
You know...
This thread has run for six pages now, and only one person has suggested solving the problem by rigorous enforcement of laws against hiring illegal workers, with seriously enhanced fines.
It's actually more illegal to hire an illegal immigrant than it is to be one, but you don't hear too many people screaming "what part of illegal don't you understand!!" at their landscaping or drywall contractors, now do you?
I guess it's too much to ask for honest, hard-working businessmen to obey the freakin' law.
Here's what I'd do, were I in charge:
1. Create a free, internet and phone searchable database of all I-9 documents.
2. Require employers to verify documents as part of I-9 submittal.
3. If you are caught hiring even one worker who cannot be validated, all documents, licenses, and permits that allow you to operate a business are revoked, you lose all of the protections of incorporation (so all of your investors, whose money you just made valueless by choosing to break the law can come after your personal assets to recoup their losses), and you go to prison for a few years.
Instant corporate death penalty. Back it up with a period of vigorous enforcement, and the illegal population will go somewhere else where they can find work.
If we did not hire them, they would not come here. If your gardening company is using illegal workers, and they probably are, you are part of the problem. Ditto if you shop at Wal-Mart, eat at McDonalds, buy produce or Tyson chicken, Hormel packaged meats, the list goes on.
These people come here because we hire them. We hire them because they'll work for a lot less money, ask for no health insurance, work in any unsafe conditions, and we get to keep the difference. The widespread use of illegal workers has cut average wages in meat packing by a factor of four in the last 25 years... have your hot dogs gotten any cheaper?
--Shannon
This thread has run for six pages now, and only one person has suggested solving the problem by rigorous enforcement of laws against hiring illegal workers, with seriously enhanced fines.
It's actually more illegal to hire an illegal immigrant than it is to be one, but you don't hear too many people screaming "what part of illegal don't you understand!!" at their landscaping or drywall contractors, now do you?
I guess it's too much to ask for honest, hard-working businessmen to obey the freakin' law.
Here's what I'd do, were I in charge:
1. Create a free, internet and phone searchable database of all I-9 documents.
2. Require employers to verify documents as part of I-9 submittal.
3. If you are caught hiring even one worker who cannot be validated, all documents, licenses, and permits that allow you to operate a business are revoked, you lose all of the protections of incorporation (so all of your investors, whose money you just made valueless by choosing to break the law can come after your personal assets to recoup their losses), and you go to prison for a few years.
Instant corporate death penalty. Back it up with a period of vigorous enforcement, and the illegal population will go somewhere else where they can find work.
If we did not hire them, they would not come here. If your gardening company is using illegal workers, and they probably are, you are part of the problem. Ditto if you shop at Wal-Mart, eat at McDonalds, buy produce or Tyson chicken, Hormel packaged meats, the list goes on.
These people come here because we hire them. We hire them because they'll work for a lot less money, ask for no health insurance, work in any unsafe conditions, and we get to keep the difference. The widespread use of illegal workers has cut average wages in meat packing by a factor of four in the last 25 years... have your hot dogs gotten any cheaper?
--Shannon
Thank You Shannon!
I try and say this at least once in every immigration thread, as a solution to the problem. But nobody wants to hear that message. Not the left nor the right.
You cure the illegal immigration problem by attacking the source. And that's those that employ them.
217 posts and only two that offer a credible solution... That everyone else, in this thread, ignores. Yup, sounds reasonable to me!
I try and say this at least once in every immigration thread, as a solution to the problem. But nobody wants to hear that message. Not the left nor the right.
You cure the illegal immigration problem by attacking the source. And that's those that employ them.
217 posts and only two that offer a credible solution... That everyone else, in this thread, ignores. Yup, sounds reasonable to me!
Yes, we need to talk more about punishing employers. I bet a few well advertised prison sentences would open the eyes of those that knowingly employee illegals. At the risk of repeating...the Basic Pilot Program allows serious employers to check legal status of new hires. We all know that when employers say "all I know is the guy had a SS number" , that he knows he is hiring an illegal.
I promise to spend more time talking about policing employers.
Data base is already available.
http://www.smartbusinesspractices.com/legal_basicpilot.php
https://www.vis-dhs.com/EmployerRegistration/StartPage.aspx?JS=YES
I promise to spend more time talking about policing employers.
Data base is already available.
http://www.smartbusinesspractices.com/legal_basicpilot.php
https://www.vis-dhs.com/EmployerRegistration/StartPage.aspx?JS=YES
glock glockler
New member
If we did not hire them, they would not come here. If your gardening company is using illegal workers, and they probably are, you are part of the problem. Ditto if you shop at Wal-Mart, eat at McDonalds, buy produce or Tyson chicken, Hormel packaged meats, the list goes on
Do I know that the landscaper uses them? He might have some Hispanic looking people but does that necessarily mean they're illegals? If the owner of a company brags that he hires illegals then I won't use his services but it's not reasonable to expect that every American that sees a problem is required to become immigration police, that's why we gave the Feds that job. The main problem is that they're not doing that job yet doing many others we didn't ask them to do.
I know illegals on welfare so your argument falls apart even quicker. Schools are required by Federal Law to educate children who are illegal, we couldn't even address the situation if we wanted to.
You want solutions, here you go.
1 - Stop giving Mexico and any of these other corrupt govts any money or other type of aid until they get their houses in order. If people could actually make a decent living in their home countries they wouldn't be so eager to leave. This means a govt that respects property rights, so if a woman wants to sew shirts out of her house she doesn't have to pay 1/2 of her earnings to the local cop for the privilege of working.
2 - Fix our own immigration system. We have a completely stupid and inefficient system for people that want to come over, it's obtrusive, time-consuming, and expensive. An emphasis should be put on people with skills and who have in demand talent, a front of the line system should be in place for people who can put money into an escrow account that will be available to defray the costs of govt services including deportation if they behave like idiots.
3 - Enforce the law, this means putting troops on the border who actually have the authority to detain people illegally crossing until they can be processed and sent back. If a security fence can be effective in helping then that should be done as well. We should also be fining employers that knowing hire illegals with some jail time thrown in.
4 - Take a cleaver to the welfare state - a large part of the angst towards illegals is there because there are a lot of govt costs that have to be paid for by everyone else. Unskilled people cannot command high wages in the market and will therefore be the MOST dependant on the govt providing for them, so it doesn't make much sense to bring in hordes of them, but seeing how no system is going to be 199% effective I'd say we'd be well off if we eliminated as much of it as possible.
This will change the entire dynamics of the immigration situation: cutting back on doles to Americans will necessitate them getting off their behinds instead of watching jerry Springer and collecting a check for that, now he'll work instead. Since we mobilize a large portion of our workforce they'll be less demand for illegal labor, combine this with the fact that illegals won't be able to undercut so easily Americans without govt assistance, if they have to pay for their own expenses those costs will be factored into how much they need to make, and their can do it or they can't.
4a - Eliminate the minimum wage. Businesses illegally hire illegals because they want to lower costs, and the greater the minimum wage is the more they're going to be squeezed by increased expenses. When the line become way to long at McDonalds because they only have 1 person at the counter who can speak the same language as I there will be ever greater temptation to just make my own breakfast.
5 - End the war on drugs - Drug cartels pay off the Mexican Army to provide protections for drug runners on our border, so this stupid policy of our increases Mexican govt corruption as well as providing a financial incentive for people crossing illegally. It definitely aggravates the immigration situation but it's also completely stupid and cause tremendous damage internally including the war on guns.
This is just a start, I'll add to it later on when I have more free time and coffee, feel free to comment.
Do I know that the landscaper uses them? He might have some Hispanic looking people but does that necessarily mean they're illegals? If the owner of a company brags that he hires illegals then I won't use his services but it's not reasonable to expect that every American that sees a problem is required to become immigration police, that's why we gave the Feds that job. The main problem is that they're not doing that job yet doing many others we didn't ask them to do.
I know illegals on welfare so your argument falls apart even quicker. Schools are required by Federal Law to educate children who are illegal, we couldn't even address the situation if we wanted to.
You want solutions, here you go.
1 - Stop giving Mexico and any of these other corrupt govts any money or other type of aid until they get their houses in order. If people could actually make a decent living in their home countries they wouldn't be so eager to leave. This means a govt that respects property rights, so if a woman wants to sew shirts out of her house she doesn't have to pay 1/2 of her earnings to the local cop for the privilege of working.
2 - Fix our own immigration system. We have a completely stupid and inefficient system for people that want to come over, it's obtrusive, time-consuming, and expensive. An emphasis should be put on people with skills and who have in demand talent, a front of the line system should be in place for people who can put money into an escrow account that will be available to defray the costs of govt services including deportation if they behave like idiots.
3 - Enforce the law, this means putting troops on the border who actually have the authority to detain people illegally crossing until they can be processed and sent back. If a security fence can be effective in helping then that should be done as well. We should also be fining employers that knowing hire illegals with some jail time thrown in.
4 - Take a cleaver to the welfare state - a large part of the angst towards illegals is there because there are a lot of govt costs that have to be paid for by everyone else. Unskilled people cannot command high wages in the market and will therefore be the MOST dependant on the govt providing for them, so it doesn't make much sense to bring in hordes of them, but seeing how no system is going to be 199% effective I'd say we'd be well off if we eliminated as much of it as possible.
This will change the entire dynamics of the immigration situation: cutting back on doles to Americans will necessitate them getting off their behinds instead of watching jerry Springer and collecting a check for that, now he'll work instead. Since we mobilize a large portion of our workforce they'll be less demand for illegal labor, combine this with the fact that illegals won't be able to undercut so easily Americans without govt assistance, if they have to pay for their own expenses those costs will be factored into how much they need to make, and their can do it or they can't.
4a - Eliminate the minimum wage. Businesses illegally hire illegals because they want to lower costs, and the greater the minimum wage is the more they're going to be squeezed by increased expenses. When the line become way to long at McDonalds because they only have 1 person at the counter who can speak the same language as I there will be ever greater temptation to just make my own breakfast.
5 - End the war on drugs - Drug cartels pay off the Mexican Army to provide protections for drug runners on our border, so this stupid policy of our increases Mexican govt corruption as well as providing a financial incentive for people crossing illegally. It definitely aggravates the immigration situation but it's also completely stupid and cause tremendous damage internally including the war on guns.
This is just a start, I'll add to it later on when I have more free time and coffee, feel free to comment.
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