Illegal Aliens rallying across US today

[wingman]

Oldphart I once would have agreed with your observations however after
living 20+ years on border I have seen great changes in the illegals who now
come across, more willing to fight, crime,etc. My local police dept. recently
arrested an illegal for DUI, no valid license, no insurance, fake inspection
on vehicle, they had to release him in time and of course he fled to Mexico.


But to me all of that does not overshadow the cost in schools, hospitals, etc.
Please tell me if you would set a limit on totals, how many can we take in,
at what point does America come apart 400 million, 500, I do not know but
all things have limits. The point of where we all came from is moot in my
opinion, we live in a new world and unless we at some point stand up and
state America is my home and we will protect it then in time it will be lost.

We outsource jobs, very little manufacturing remains in this country, we import poor undereducated workers. How is that good for America. Of course it would be nice to feed every child in the world, establish democracy in ever country but can we afford that.?? Compassion is great but at what cost.

 

[DonR101395]

Unless some of you can show me a visa issued by a native American indian tribe of the time, your ancestors were no better than mine and you're just a later generation of their original "anchor babies".

Can someone show proof of Native American immigration law? I'm pretty sure there wasn't any central government or law, so there was no way of issuing a visa.

 

[rgoers]

Aside from all the emotion; that these illegals are people, and they have families, etc., etc. - they're here illegally, and that's breaking the law! Period!!!

My great grand parents came here on a boat. The registered as immigrants, learned the language, and became American citizens. They didn't look for free handouts, they didn't try to change the language in this country, they didn't break laws to stay here. The did it by the book, worked hard, and made something of themselves.

It's time for this country to close our borders, send back all the illegals, and give them a second chance at becoming American citizens - the right way. They can apply, learn ENGLISH, and take the oath... just like immigrants have been doing for 100 years.

It makes me PUKE when I see these people demanding their "rights" here. They have NO RIGHTS here! Those "rights" are only available to American citizens! I did NOT defend this country so a bunch of illegals can take it over, break the law, and make America bilingual!

I do have to admit that I like Tacos though...

 

[Oldphart]

Okay madmag and rgoers, you now have a chance to do something about this problem - and I certainly do admit there is a problem.
These people come here to make a better life for themselves and their families. Some of them cause trouble and they need to get stomped on quickly and thoroughly. But just as we (at least in this state) can get around the NICS BS with a face-to-face transaction, we also do everything we can to avoid paying taxes. Since we're planning on staying here we limit ourselves to legal maneuvers to accomplish this. Once a person is declared "illegal," why shouldn't he do everything he can to pay as little tax as possible, even if it's an illegal maneuver?
As for the overload on the welfare system; it was designed to be overloaded. What we need is a system that doesn't reward sloth and laziness, that doesn't subsidize irresponsibility and, instead, helps those who have suffered a tragedy to get back on their feet. We used to have that sort of system but then we (that's us - you, me and the neighbors) took it away from the organizations that were doing it so well and gave it to . . . the Government! Now, instead of having to show that you're in real need all you have to do is claim you aren't as well off as your neighbors and ol' Uncle Sam'll fix you right up. With welfare laws like what we now have why wouldn't every indigent in the world flock here to soak up some of the goodies? Maybe we need a system that will encourage them to pay taxes rather than avoid them.
So now back to the original statement in this post.
What Presidential candidate wants to do away with State sponsored welfare? Why the very same one that wants to open the borders. Let's suppose he is elected and he does manage to do both of those things (not very likely on either count.) All those indigents wouldn't come here because there wouldn't be any free hand-outs but those who want to work would and could still make it and in so doing would make this country a better place too.
That candidate is Ron Paul, the only candidate who isn't afraid to tell the truth, regardless of how many votes it costs him.
In the past 75 years we've managed to elect one decent President. Isn't it time to do it again? Or would you rather just vote for the lesser of two evils again, and again, and again, and . . .

 

[ahenry]

Oldphart,

I have here on my desk a copy of "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." It says that "all men are created equal," not all men who were born in the united States but ALL men. It further states that they have certain "unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Of course all men are born equal and with the same rights. That doesn’t have anything to do with anything. As a nation are we to spend our resources ensuring that Chinese are afforded all their respective rights and liberties? Obviously not. Further, the Declaration of Independence is a statement of our Founders belief of what sort of social contract a people and their gov’t should be. Illegal immigrants by their very status here, have implicitly stated their disregard for the very social agreement that has made us the greatest nation in the world.

In closing, let me say that my ancestors came here from Wales in the late 1600's. According to the residents of the area at that time they too were "illegals." Unless some of you can show me a visa issued by a native American indian tribe of the time, your ancestors were no better than mine and you're just a later generation of their original "anchor babies".

That is asinine. There was no nation in America when our Forefathers came over here. Even if you want to claim the natives in America were a “nation”, they didn’t claim the land. By their philosophy, the land belonged to nobody.

 

[SecDef]

Of course all men are born equal and with the same rights. That doesn’t have anything to do with anything. As a nation are we to spend our resources ensuring that Chinese are afforded all their respective rights and liberties? Obviously not.

Replace "Chinese" with "Iraqi" and that statement is a lot more "fun".

 

[Redworm]

I did NOT defend this country so a bunch of illegals can take it over, break the law, and make America bilingual!

See, your argument was understandable until you said that last part. First of all, America being bilingual would be an incredible benefit to us. A nation full of people that can only speak one nation is weakened in the global economy. If by the end of this century more than half the citizens of America speak Spanish as the primary language then why the hell should english still be the "official" language?

People seem to think that their version of "American culture" is the only one that deserves to survive once they're dead and buried. Doesn't work that way; culture evolves and language right along with it. Folks complaining about the economic effects are understandable, folks complaining about the moral issue are less understandable but still have a foot to stand on...but those complaining about their "culture" being degraded by immigrants don't have a worthwhile argument.

 

[DonR101395]

American Heritage Dictionary
civil rights
pl.n. The rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship, especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and by subsequent acts of Congress, including civil liberties, due process, equal protection of the laws, and freedom from discrimination.

Food for thought

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois

Aztecs in Mexico were a nation until they got their butts whipped. The Americas had nations.

Why not stopped all the hatred and suggest a way that folks who want to work can come here?

Why not figure out a way to stop business (mostly conservatives) from exploiting them?

Or is it better just to rant?

BTW, two of my grandparents were illegals. Tsk, Tsk - like I haven't contributed as much as any to the country.

 

[DonR101395]

Aztecs in Mexico were a nation until they got their butts whipped. The Americas had nations.

Why not stopped all the hatred and suggest a way that folks who want to work can come here?

Why not figure out a way to stop business (mostly conservatives) from exploiting them?

I was with you until you got to the third line. Got a source that says it mainly conservative businesses exploiting illegals?

BTW, two of my grandparents were illegals. Tsk, Tsk - like I haven't contributed as much as any to the country.

Good for you, my wife and step-daughter are legal immigrants and now U.S. citizens. That doesn't make me an expert on legal immigration anymore than your grandparents make you an expert on illegals.

 

[rgoers]

"...If by the end of this century more than half the citizens of America speak Spanish as the primary language then why the hell should english still be the "official" language?"

English should be the official language, because it *IS* the official language. It used to be a requirement to learn the language BEFORE becoming an American citizen. The problem is the illegals who come here do not go through the established system. They never learn English, the official language of the United States, because they have circumvented the immigration system which was put in place as a standard for all to follow. There has to be a standard, or there will be chaos.

Think of the millions of dollars wastefully spent trying to accommodate those who refuse to be Americans!!! Police patrols have to consist of 2 officers; one English speaking, and one Spanish speaking. Publications have to be printed in two languages. The list goes on and on. I'm sorry, but I simply do NOT agree with you. English is the established language, and it should remain that way as long as America remains a country. If there's to be any semblance of unity, we must all be able to speak and understand each other.

As to the global marketplace; I couldn't agree more. Speaking another language is NOT a bad thing. America is shamefully behind other nations in that area. When I was in Holland, it was not uncommon for people to speak 3 or 4 languages fluently! That's a wonderful thing. The point is; when I visit Holland, I am not such a pompous ass as to insist they change their official language to English, simply to accommodate me.

Pandering to illegals, adopting their language, allowing them to break the law and rewarding them for it, is NOT in the best interest for America.

 

[Redworm]

English should be the official language, because it *IS* the official language.

Now that just makes no sense. If it is the official language then it doesn't need to become the official language...

It used to be a requirement to learn the language BEFORE becoming an American citizen.

And it still is. The only way one can take the citizenship test in another language is if they are older than 50/55 and have been in the US for 15/20 years or have a mental disorder that prevents the learning of a new language.

Basically anyone that take the citizenship test does have an understanding of English, at least moreso than most people I've met both in inner cities and out in the boonies.

The problem is the illegals who come here do not go through the established system. They never learn English, the official language of the United States, because they have circumvented the immigration system which was put in place as a standard for all to follow. There has to be a standard, or there will be chaos.

I'm not arguing about the illegal problem, I'm arguing with the people that are afraid of whites being a minority.

Think of the millions of dollars wastefully spent trying to accommodate those who refuse to be Americans!!! Police patrols have to consist of 2 officers; one English speaking, and one Spanish speaking. Publications have to be printed in two languages. The list goes on and on. I'm sorry, but I simply do NOT agree with you. English is the established language, and it should remain that way as long as America remains a country. If there's to be any semblance of unity, we must all be able to speak and understand each other.

Are you kidding me? No they don't.

Police would not have to hire bilingual officers but they would most certainly have the ability to. In high hispanic areas there would be a greater number of officers from that hispanic population. Do cops in heavy asian populations have to learn Chinese/Japanese/Korean/etc? No. So wtf makes you think they'd have to learn Spanish?

Publications can print in whatever the hell language they see fit. The "list" is a bunch of nonesense. The only place that English should be required is driving tests. That's it.

You can disagree all you want but I don't see that just because something is established that it must remain that way. Sure, let's all understand each other. Let's teach children multiple languages from birth. That's the best way to do it, not to sit back and whine about having to press 1 for english.

Pandering to illegals, adopting their language,

And back to the crux of the argument. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE LEGAL SPANISH SPEAKERS?

 

[MDman]

can we please keep this debate as civil as possible.

I would rather it wasnt closed

 

[Slugthrower]

Once again... What language is the Constitution of the United States written in?

Argue all you wish. If you cannot read or write in English. You will only be able to read the Constitution from second hand interpretations. Like it or the Founders were English.

Schools have a hard enough time teaching children how to read and write in English properly let alone another primary language.

 

[Redworm]

Is there anything in the constitution that demands english remain the only official language of the nation? No.

So what if second hand interpretations are the only way a person understands the Constitution? How many religious conservatives on this board read Aramaic?

Schools in plenty of other nations have zero problem teaching children two languages. That being said the point remains that arguing about language not an argument in regards to illegal immigration because there are many more perfectly legal citizens and residents that speak Spanish as a first languge.

 

[Slugthrower]

Redworm. You know just as well as I do. When you translate a language there are meanings that are lost. In some languages there are no translations to certain words meanings.

As for Christians. They refer to God as a he. In the original writings there is no reference to the Creator's sex. The closest one can get in English is, I am that I am. That is one reason why Christians have so many different sects. They can't agree as to what the real meanings are.

Having multiple languages as "first" languages is only asking for a state of confusion in the end. A culture is defined by it's language in general terms. I know it would be a good thing to be multi lingual, but not all will be able to learn multiple languages. Some folks are just not that smart.

Auf wiedersehen Herr Redworm und guten tag. Tu bist bonito und hesslich. From a certain perspective anyway.

 

[madmag]

This is a fast moving thread. Take off a few hours and you are pages behind.

Actually I think they do this because you ask them to do so,/QUOTE]

Finally a solution. Now I am in charge. All I have to do is ask my State....no make that all 50 States to pass legislation I want to control the illegal problems. Excuse me while I go write my proposal.

 

[madmag]

In the past 75 years we've managed to elect one decent President.

Ok, I know I should resist this and I am going to be sorry I asked.....but who was our one decent President? The only reason I am asking is that I am an old timer and maybe I voted for this one decent President.


Please, Please, do not tell me it was senor Bush.

Ok, I am ready.

I am getting nervous waiting, so 75 years ago should start about Hoover.

Hoover...no he was the father of the depression.

FDR....High up to be number one, Great war time President. But he did start many social programs, but many of these actually failed.

Truman....lost of guts. No double talk. Also high up for number one.

Eisenhower...Good general, played too much golf. On the weak side as President.

Kennedy...Good looking. Great speaker. Backed the Russians down. Used the National Guard to back down Gov. Wallace. Was NRA member. Also high up for number one.

Johnson...made Vietnam our war. Bottom of list.

Nixon...smart guy, just a little too crooked.

Ford...smater than he got credit for. Deserves to be toward the top.

Carter...the weakest President ever. I think a rabbit kicked his ass once.

Reagan....good for world diplomacy, fired those arrogant air traffic controller's, great speaker. NRA member. Top of list.

George H. Bush...smarter than his Son. Not top of list.

Clinton...actualy pretty smart guy. Left the economy in good shape. Should be at top of list. I forgot, a little too hot for the ladies.

George W. Bush...the dumbest President in history. Probably came the closest to destroying this Country with bad decisions than any President ever. No brainier, bottom of list.

Still not sure about number one...but I am getting there.

The above is not only my opinion but an accurate assessment of Presidential history.

 

[Redworm]

Redworm. You know just as well as I do. When you translate a language there are meanings that are lost. In some languages there are no translations to certain words meanings.

Yet the basic concepts can be translated into virtually any language, certainly a modern one. The Constitution can very easily be translated into Spanish and retain it's full meaning.

As for Christians. They refer to God as a he. In the original writings there is no reference to the Creator's sex. The closest one can get in English is, I am that I am. That is one reason why Christians have so many different sects. They can't agree as to what the real meanings are.

Having multiple languages as "first" languages is only asking for a state of confusion in the end. A culture is defined by it's language in general terms. I know it would be a good thing to be multi lingual, but not all will be able to learn multiple languages. Some folks are just not that smart.

And this culture is a combination of many so it only makes sense that our languages be a combination of many. Language is certainly the soul of a culture but that doesn't mean that a culture must remain stagnant and refuse to evolve as all others have done since the dawn of civilization.

Sure, make all official documents in English. No problem with that but when people bitch and moan about all the spanish speakers and pretend it's a viable argument against illegal immigration it's purely sickening. I honestly don't mind the government being English only but people and businesses have the right to do their things in whatever language they damn well please.

And again, what happens if by the end of this century the majority of American citizens are spanish speakers? Most of the baby boomers complaining about this stuff will be six feet under in two or three decades but barring any unfortunate incidents I've got a good half to three quarters of a century left on me. With medical research the way it's going plenty kids my age are probably going to see the turn of the next century so we actually do have to consider this stuff.

In other words, I can't sit here pretending that everything is going to stay the same forever and hold a set of foolish conservative ideals that only work for someone that won't have to adapt to a rapidly changing world. America could be primarily hispanic in fifty years. And that's ok.

Auf wiedersehen Herr Redworm und guten tag. Tu bist bonito und hesslich. From a certain perspective anyway.

 

[madmag]

I for one don't have a big problem with the language issue. By default English is the world business language. That may change someday, but for now that is the way it works.

If you are German, French, Mexican, Polish, Russian, etc. and in Japan on business the Japanese will speak to you in English. If you are German and are in France for a meeting the French will speak English...(they loathe German). If French are in Germany then again it's English again. Same with Russia, Poland, Italy, etc. Well you get the picture.

If you want to do world business or pilot a commercial aircraft, then one of your languages needs to be English. Yes, if a Mexican pilot lands in France he has to communicate to the tower in English.

Illegals will never be pilots.