Illegal Aliens rallying across US today

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They're trespassing, that's plenty, or would you like me to go into the economic impact that they've had on the US?

I'd love you to. Just make sure you take into account all factors, not just the negatives. And let me know how that complex economic analysis works out for you. Last I checked, economists were hardly in agreement as to either the magnitude or the direction of the overall economic impact illegals have. It goes far beyond the situation at your local emergency room or welfare office, though, so if that's the depth of the analysis you plan to present, save it.
 
No, make it a path to citizenship instead of amnesty. Oh, you want to be a citizen, how exactly did you get here except illegally? Pay $2000, do not pass go. Not saying go out an collect, just make it part of the process.
_

Simply will not work many would not come forward to pay, and then we are back to square one, asking status at traffic stops, etc.

It goes far beyond the situation at your local emergency room or welfare office, though, so if that's the depth of the analysis you plan to present, save it.

Don't want to hear the truth.? Correct it goes far beyond, I've read numerous reports on this subject most agree the cost to "average Joe" far out weight the benefits. Remember look at this subject in terms of dollars not emotions. We either make changes now or the cost in future will be much higher.
 
1. When or if I need a new backyard pool, I'm neither gonna do it myself, nor pay some contractor to start digging. Nope. I'm gonna buy a few shovels, drive over to the bus depot/ gas station/ truck stop/ kwik-e-mart and say, ¿trabajo?

Then you'e broken the law. I don't know what your example is trying to prove, but it makes no difference. Whether you're a million dollar corp or some guy who needs wekend labor it makes no difference. No one is above the law.


The demonstration here is that i'm just talking about digging a pool. Are you going to have me jailed for a rediculously long amount of time?

No, because I think first offenders should have to pay a ridiculous fine. After that its ridiculous jail time. However the details work out though you should be just as subject as anyone else.


The bigger demonstration is that you can't stop capitalism, nor can you tell people what things they should buy or spend money on.

Sure we can, and the commerce clause specifically allows government to do just that within certian paramters. However I think its ridiculous to suggest that ony allowing people that are here legally to work is somehow stopping capitalism. Thats a real big stretch.


If they want it, they will get it. Remember the 'war on drug's mega-thread? - I can't remember how many members outed themselves as past or current users. Surely that stuff didn't just rain down from the sky.

But thats the beauty of it. With such stiff penalties and incerase enforcement, employers won't want it. Any profit increase they would recieve from hiring ilegals simply won't be enough to justify the risk. And for the record I'm squeaky clean so I get to rail against drugs all I want:D


2. Yeah... what a great photo op for every single media outlet. No, I think properly financed, trained, and manned border patrol will be better.

I'm fine with either. Right now however the national guard is there. We don't have nearly enough agents to do the job. It would take years to build up the BP to a level where they made a difference.


First, we'll round them up into ghettos. Then we'll put them on trains to begin their long journey. Then it's off to the camps they go! Okay, low, insensitive blow there.

I don't know about the camps part, but its no secret where these people live. In San Diego I can take you to dozens of cardboard villages and camp sites or the hundreds of places they hang out for work. Rounding these folks up simply isn't that hard. Its just that nobody does it.


Mind the last word in your sentence. Technically, they shouldn't be here, but they are after all, just your fellow human being. Besides possibly blaring Latin music (which I'll admit, Juan Carlos, sounds all the same to me) while driving past your white-picket-fence neighborhood, they haven't really done anything wrong to you.

At the risk of an extreme analogy, murderers are people too. That doesn't mean that I don't advocate for their punishment.

As far as doing something wrong to me, sure they have. At the very basest level they have disrespected my country by violating the rule of law. They've shown me what they think of my country by how they have treated it. They show me what they think of my country by how well they have assimilated, and where they send their money.

People used to spend their life savings and risk their lives to cross oceans becase they wanted to be american. Today people cross deserts because they want to earn some scratch. That might be a bit of an oversimplification but I feel theres a whole bunch of truth to it. Most of these people are either squatting or living 20 to the apartment and most send a large portion of their wages back to mexico. They aren't here to join our country they are here because thats where the money is.

I don't necessarily fault them for this because I may very well do the same thing if I was in their shoes. That said however I want the law to be enforced, and that doesn't make me any less of a humanitarian.



What I'm getting at, is that I think it's a lot more complicated than your 1-2-3 approach. I am, however, a big fan of that bush worker visa program.

Not really. Stop hte incentive and theres no reaosn to come. Why would people spend all their money and cross the southwest when they know theres no work.
 
Don't want to hear the truth.? Correct it goes far beyond, I've read numerous reports on this subject most agree the cost to "average Joe" far out weight the benefits. Remember look at this subject in terms of dollars not emotions. We either make changes now or the cost in future will be much higher.

See, and most that I've read agree that the costs to the "average Joe" outweigh the benefits, but not "by far." At which point it does become fair to start weighing intangible benefits (including emotional) against that cost.

Human beings are not good at making decisions based entirely on tangible benefits/gain, and when they do their decisions generally entirely self-serving and the kind that lead to a society I don't necessarily want to live in.

Also, I'd suggest that many people who rail against immigration (illegal, as well as keeping legal immigration limited) are often also doing so at least partly from emotion. Emotions that could be anything from racism, to fear (economic, particularly...cultural fear fits more under racism), to nationalism (see below: "they're disrespecting my country, man!").

So no, I don't think I should be required to think entirely in dollars and cents, on this issue or on any other, when generally very few on the other side are doing the same.*

As far as doing something wrong to me, sure they have. At the very basest level they have disrespected my country by violating the rule of law.

Yeah, them along with a vast majority of people, legal and illegal, native and immigrant, in this country. You must just be angry all the time at most everybody you meet, huh?

The rest of what you said was fair, whether or not I agree. Except this:

I don't necessarily fault them for this because I may very well do the same thing if I was in their shoes. That said however I want the law to be enforced, and that doesn't make me any less of a humanitarian.

Well, we can debate all day whether this applies to our immigration law...but if you fight to have a law enforced that runs counter to humanitarian purposes, rather than fight to have it changed, that does indeed make you less of a humanitarian.

EDIT: Also note that I favor reforms of the social programs that cause much of the cost of illegal (and legal) immigration...I think this is a better way to address this cost than simply keeping people out. My views on immigration don't exist in a vacuum.
 
JuanCarlos,

See, and most that I've read agree that the costs to the "average Joe" outweigh the benefits, but not "by far." At which point it does become fair to start weighing intangible benefits (including emotional) against that cost

The immediate benefit to the cheap labor provided by illegals will be realized for businesses that employ them and their customers. If I don't need a deck built that might employ labor of illegals then I don't get the benefit, but I still get the tax bill from the govt services consumed by illegals. Either that or maybe the hospital will just close like over 84 have in California since 1993, now since that hospital is no longer in operation how will that effect everyone else who needs medical care?

The depressing of wages also makes getting off welfare less attractive financially for those on it, what effect does that have on our country: maintaining a permanent dependant class?

Also note that I favor reforms of the social programs that cause much of the cost of illegal (and legal) immigration...I think this is a better way to address this cost than simply keeping people out. My views on immigration don't exist in a vacuum

I totally agree on reforming them, if those services were performed by the market instead of govt this issue would evaporate for the most part, low skill/wage laborers wouldn't come to an area if they couldnt support themselves with their low wages, the problem takes care of itself, but how do we get there from here? Low wage people are THE most dependant on govt services being provided for them, so are they going to vote for less of them? Is bringing in millions of them going to help reforming this situation?
 
1. Even if you don't need a deck you do see a benefit because you buy food that was harvested with cheap, illegal labor and the simple fact that having 12 million consumers in a free market inherently stimulates that economy.

2. Hospitals closing has not been proved to be because of illegal immigration. Correlation != causation.
 
Two people have quoted me as saying:
The bigger demonstration is that you can't stop capitalism
glock glockler and STAGE 2.

Since, to my knowledge, I've only made 3 posts to this thread, I can say that I never said any such thing in this thread. Just did a search on this thread. Confirmed.

So why are we quoting something I never said in this thread? Where and when was it said and what was the context?

Still, the two of you seem to be quoting something I may have said in another thread, which has to do with this thread... What exactly?
 
Simply will not work many would not come forward to pay, and then we are back to square one, asking status at traffic stops, etc.

What will not work? This isn't a solution unto itself. It is part of resolving what to do with 12 million illegal aliens. Ship em all out of the country(certainly not cheap)? Sure, then they sneak back in and we are also back to square one, but have lost monetarily.
 
Antipitas,

My apologies, it was applesanity that wrote that, I am probably low on caffine and the "a" probably threw me.

Redworm,

The hospitals cited unpaid bills from emergency room visits, even for very minor problems, as the primary cause. Maybe they're lying, maybe it was all legal Americans that went to the emergency room because they knew they couldnt be denied and then didnt pay the bill, but I think Vegas gives better odds than that.

As far as your other point, I might save on how much I am paying for food but how much am I being hit in extra taxes? The extra labor supplied by illegals reduces the cost of food at the market rate, the govt services that the taxpayers have to pay for is at the govt rate, now tell me if it costs more for the Pentagon to buy a hammer or for me to buy it? We're paying disproportionately more in services then we're getting.

We also pay financially, culturally, and politically by having the welfare class remain a welfare class. I know people on welfare who can get work but choose not to because it would pay virtually the same amount as they get for sitting in their behinds, why should they work? Without illegals depressing wages for low end work the price of that work might very well rise, but that means the welfare dolers will be more likely to get off welfare. We might have to pay more for some goods and services but we'll also be paying less in taxes.

We have PLENTY of untapped labor for low end work right here in our own country, we just have to stop paying them not to work. Tighten border security, deport illegals, and then start cutting back on govt handouts and the market will do it's thing.
 
1. Even if you don't need a deck you do see a benefit because you buy food that was harvested with cheap, illegal labor ...

The old "jobs Americans won't do" argument, eh?

The real issue here is that they're jobs Americans won't do at slave-labor pay rates.

If I offered you a nickel per plop to pick up dog poop in my yard, would you take the job? How about ten bucks a plop? Twenty? Fifty?

At a hundred bucks a plop, I'd have a line around the block of college graduates willing to do the work in a suit and tie.

If cabbage becomes cost-prohibitive to harvest, someone will either invent a cabbage-harvester and make millions, or people will pay more, or people will grow their own cabbage. So what? Why does cheap cabbage justify or excuse the exploitation of illegal immigrants through plantation-level pay rates?

Part of the problem is that it's illegal to pay an American high school kid $5 an hour for a $2-per-hour job, because the minimum wage is higher than that. Not to mention workers' comp insurance mandate, and a whole long list of other regulatory hurdles to hiring an employee.
 
I dont see how anyone could be in favor of illegal imigration, or of "going easy" on the illegals. Why give them an easy workers visa when those that come legally from other countries have to work so hard to do it?

They may be human beings, but they are not citizens of this country. We owe them NOTHING. Do you feel that you'd be treated so well if you jumped the border into Mexico? I doubt it.

I see nothing evil in arresting illegals and bussing them back to the border, and sending them back across. Put more armed guards on the border, and let them use their weapons should the need arise.

People are terrified and panic at the mere thought of a swiss army knife being carried on an airplane, but it seems to me that most americans dont even care that every day, undocumented people are crossing into this country, and nobody knows who they are, or what sort of drugs or weapons they could be carrying. If a few million people can get in without getting caught, whats to stop somone from bringing in a suitcase nuclear weapon the same way? Think about it, people.

Personally, I think we could solve the imigration problem if we assumed that everyone who jumped the border was a potential terrorist and treated them accordingly.

I may sound cold, but honestly, I dont care what their reasons are for coming here. They are capable human beings, and with time and effort, can fix their problems, in their own country.
 
The hospitals cited unpaid bills from emergency room visits, even for very minor problems, as the primary cause.
:confused: But did they specifically say that it was illegals skipping out on the check? If so, how do they know?

As far as your other point, I might save on how much I am paying for food but how much am I being hit in extra taxes?
That's the point. The overall economic impact - positive or negative - has not been established. It's still up in the air...
We also pay financially, culturally, and politically by having the welfare class remain a welfare class. I know people on welfare who can get work but choose not to because it would pay virtually the same amount as they get for sitting in their behinds, why should they work?
You have to be legal - or have spent a good deal of time and money getting a reliable fake ID - to be on welfare. It's unreasonable to believe that a significant percentage of illegals are recieving a monthly check from Uncle Sam.

As for the other point you are right, fewer illegal labor could mean more people employed but at the moment they're not "taking our jobs". Americans are not lining up to pick fruit and mow lawns and there is more work available than there is untapped labor. Imho one of the first things to do is to stop allowing companies to ship all their jobs overseas.
 
The old "jobs Americans won't do" argument, eh?

The real issue here is that they're jobs Americans won't do at slave-labor pay rates.

If I offered you a nickel per plop to pick up dog poop in my yard, would you take the job? How about ten bucks a plop? Twenty? Fifty?

At a hundred bucks a plop, I'd have a line around the block of college graduates willing to do the work in a suit and tie.

If cabbage becomes cost-prohibitive to harvest, someone will either invent a cabbage-harvester and make millions, or people will pay more, or people will grow their own cabbage. So what? Why does cheap cabbage justify or excuse the exploitation of illegal immigrants through plantation-level pay rates?

Part of the problem is that it's illegal to pay an American high school kid $5 an hour for a $2-per-hour job, because the minimum wage is higher than that. Not to mention workers' comp insurance mandate, and a whole long list of other regulatory hurdles to hiring an employee.
I'm not saying it justifies the exploitation, I'm pointing out that the strictly economic impact is not necessarily negative. It has not been proven either way and is still in heated debate.

It's not evolution, it's global warming. :D
 
Two people have quoted me as saying:

Quote:
The bigger demonstration is that you can't stop capitalism

glock glockler and STAGE 2.

Since, to my knowledge, I've only made 3 posts to this thread, I can say that I never said any such thing in this thread. Just did a search on this thread. Confirmed.

So why are we quoting something I never said in this thread? Where and when was it said and what was the context?

I don't ever recall saying you said that (3 times fast.)

This was applesanitys statement that people who want immigration laws enforced are opposing capitalism.



but if you fight to have a law enforced that runs counter to humanitarian purposes, rather than fight to have it changed, that does indeed make you less of a humanitarian.

Juan Juan Juan my friend. Please explain to me how wanting people to respect our laws is anti-humanitarian. I didn't know that a nation asserting its sovereignty was anti0humanitarian.

If this is your opinion then I sure hope you have some stiff criticism of how Mexico treats its (legal) immigrants, let alone the illegal ones.
 
Please explain to me how our current system of encouraging/expanding poverty

Well now, are you against illegal immigration, or just poor people in general?

Yeah, that was really low, and since even you recognize it I have to ask why you still wrote it?

Because it's the logical extreme. The line between deporting the people you don't think should be in your country, and my low blow comment, is thin and hazy. Logical extremes are one of the best ways to disprove or question arguments. My post was full of those. How many times have you said, "If ____ told you to jump off a cliff/ the empire state building/ a plane, would you do it?"

I don't know what your example is trying to prove, but it makes no difference.

I'm trying to prove that at some level, it gets relatively harmless. Anyone who has hired some kid to mow his backyard has broken the law by encouraging child labor, yeah? I'm not claiming to be above the law; I'm saying that I don't think it's as black and white as I think you're implying.

However I think its ridiculous to suggest that ony allowing people that are here legally to work is somehow stopping capitalism.

No, I'm saying that if people want it, they well get it - regardless of the law. Hence the "war on drugs" reference. I think, properly worded, I should have said, "you can't stop people from getting what they want." You can't make gun laws to prevent people from getting guns if they really want them, e.g.

With such stiff penalties and incerase enforcement, employers won't want it.

Again, the war on drugs. Stiffer penalties and increased enforcement, statistically has actually made cocaine cheaper and purer. I wrote a killer paper on that for my supply chain management class, using only data from ONDCP. (note, that specifc page is SFW, but the rest of the site isn't.)

At the risk of an extreme analogy,

I use extremes all the time.

As far as doing something wrong to me, sure they have. At the very basest level they have disrespected my country by violating the rule of law.

Okay, I'll give you that. But they're not murderers; they're just looking for work.

I don't necessarily fault them for this because I may very well do the same thing if I was in their shoes.

AH HAH!

That said however I want the law to be enforced, and that doesn't make me any less of a humanitarian.

Of course not. It's just a matter of where we're gonna draw the line.

The real issue here is that they're jobs Americans won't do at slave-labor pay rates.

The real issue here is that they're not as lazy or greedy as Americans.

Why give them an easy workers visa

Because one way or another, illegal immigration is going to happen. Sure, we can tone it down through reasonable and just enforcement of proper law, but so long as America is billed as "the land of opportunity," it will happen. A worker visa program keeps track of the illegal immigrant. Given a proper channel to find work, there's a good chance that they'll be willing to get into this country through legal means, and then leave accordingly.

Do you feel that you'd be treated so well if you jumped the border into Mexico?

Red herring argument. I don't care how the Mexican government would deal with me. I care how we'd deal with illegal immigrants.

We also pay financially, culturally, and politically by having the welfare class remain a welfare class.

What does this have to do with illegal immigration? You're talking about welfare reform.

and sending them back across.

And next week, they'll probably come back. You haven't solved the problem, you're just rolling a boulder up a hill.

The day may come when some of you get your wish and a wall gets built on the border. When that day comes, I'm gonna invest all my money in the grappling hook industry.

South Park reference: Damn Mongolians!
 
STAGE 2, you're correct. You didn't give an attribution. After reading glocklers' "quote," I assumed when I shouldn't have. My bad.
 
Dont ya love it when what starts out as a civil, straight foward debate falls down to the point where all there is left to do is to pick each others statments apart, to make witty comments on them? Seems to me its the adult version of pointing fingers and making silly faces. Its very easy to get so caught up in minor detals that you forget what the big issue is completely.

Immagration isnt as hard a problem to solve as some people think, UNLESS you go looking for a politically correct solution. Those of you who are looking, let me save you some time. There is no PC solution to illegal imagration. As the old saying goes, "if you want to make an omlette, you got to break some eggs."

Wether you use barbed wire, a brick wall, or machine gun nests, the border can be closed. But instead of relying on the structure alone, if you want to stop them, you have to guard the border in such a way that they loose the desire to cross. Make them afraid. Sure it doesnt sound very nice to those looking for PC solutions, but an armed soldier who is allowed to use his weapons will do more to stop illegal imagration than any barbed wire fence will.

You wouldnt have to actively seek illegal imagrants in the streets. Everyone eventually needs medical care, or wishes to buy a car, or get a drivers license. Should the illegal arive at a hospital, give them the necessary care, but once they are treated, hold them and call law inforcement. Treat them the same way as you would an escaped prisoner, because at this point, thats what they are. Fugitives from justice. Simply by being here, they are criminals. Treat them accordingly.

Sending them back across a well armed border would be sucessful. Build LEGAL imigration centers along the border for those that wish to follow our laws, and become an American citizen.

Its been said before, I'm sure... but while our country fights against terrorism in foreign lands, we leave our southern border, open for the most part. To me, this makes as much sense as putting bars on your front windows, and leaving the back door open.

Eventually our borders will be closed... I just hope it doesnt take the destruction of one of our cities to do it.
 
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