how many rounds

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WOW did this post turn a corner or what...

to keep it back on track...

this was addressed to one of my comments...
The math doesn't work - a five shot revolver won't do double taps on 3 or 4 guys.
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1st off, it will do double taps on the 1st 2 & a single shot at the 3rd ( & now let's stop & take a look at where we are right now... if I'm carrying a snubbie, & I am assulted by 3 or 4 guys... I can legally shoot the ones carrying a deadly weapon, if I fear for my life... but if I shoot the 1st guy, the one carrying a weapon, or the 1st & 2nd if they are carrying weapons, the odds are going way out the window, that all 3 or 4 guys are pointing weapons at me... ( & if all 3 or 4 are armed & determined to kill me, I'm pretty much dead anyway, carrying anything even close to a "normal" carry weapon, & without wearing body armor ) if I shoot the 3rd guy in the back, as he's running away, or the 3rd guy, as he's raising his hands up... I'm going to jail... ) yup... there may be 3-4 guys, but that is often to get the odds in their favor for less resistance ( mob mentality ) but I'm willing to bet ( with my life appearently ) that not all will be armed, & that none of the unarmed attackers is going to try to choke me, if a gun is pointed at them, weather I only have 1 round left, or zero ( who counts during the shock of a gun fight ??? )

... & BTW... I also noted that I, more often than not, have been carrying a 7 shot 22 Magnum J Frame, & if not that one, my back up to that is a 6 shot 32 H&R magnum J Frame... I don't find I shoot the 5 shot LCR-X as well as either of my higher capacity J Frames...

& BTW #2.. those Speer Gold Dot short barrel 22 Magnums work really well out of that 7 shot snubbie, weighs next to nothing, & offers 2 more rounds than the 38's :)

as far as stock piling ammo... I probably have way more than most, on hand, but that is a combination of 70-75 calibers I reload for, coupled with I have both budgeted money, & have the space to store it... yes, I'll agree there are those with a problem ( just like gambling or drinking ) where they are not living a balanced life, for fear of world colapse or "zombies" I probably fall into "prepper" catagory, myself, but I like to think I live a balanced lifestyle, maybe more like a boyscout than a wacko TV type... but there is a good chance, most of this brass, bullets, primers, & loaded cartridges, are going to continue to go up in value... but who knows, maybe it'll be like investing in Gold... great investment 20 years ago, not so much today ( yet there are still plenty of people buying gold today, just like there are people stock piling ammo, at current prices ) I still pick up a bulk pack of ammo once in a while, but most of my stuff was purchased back in the clinton era... after that shortage, at a much cheaper price, so I'm shooting cheaper today, but still forced to buy replacement ammo & components at todays prices
 
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Posted by Magnum Wheel Man:
1st off, it will do double taps on the 1st 2 & a single shot at the 3rd....
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That might be the best thing to do under the circumstances, or it might not.

It may work, or it might not.

( let's stop & take a look at where we are right now... if I'm carrying a snubbie, & am assulted by 3 or 4 guys... I can legally shoot the ones carrying a deadly weapon...
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That's quite an oversimplification. First, if the assault stops before the defender has shot some of them, justification ceases. Second, one should not infer that the defender would not be justified in shooting someone who is not "carrying a deadly weapon", under the circumstances.

yup... there may be 3-4 guys, but that is often to get the ods in their favor for less resistance ( mob mentality ) but I'm willing to bet ( with my life appearently ) that not all will be armed, & that none of the unarmed attackers is going to try to choke me, if a gun is pointed at them, weather I only have 1 round left, or zero ( who counts during the shock of a gun fight ??? )
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What?

... & BTW... I also noted that I more often than not, have been carrying a 7 shot 22 Magnum J Frame, & my back up to that is a 6 shot 32 H&R magnum J Frame... I don't find I shoot the 5 shot LCR-X as well as either of my higher capacity J Frames... & BTW #2.. those Speer Gold Dot short barrel 22 Magnums work really well out of that 7 shot snubbie, weighs next to nothing, & offers 2 more rounds than the 38's
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The comment was "I don't carry a reload... even if carrying my LCR-X 5 round 38 Special... ... I practice double taps, & thus am good for 3-4 guys with any of my lil snubbie revolvers ..."
 
1st ones targeted are the ones with the weapons...
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If you really believe that you are "... good for 3-4 guys with any of my lil snubbie revolvers", fine, but I carry a firearm more suited for serious defensive work, and I have availed myself of good SD training, but to be frank, I so not think I am "good for 3-4 guys".

Nor do I think that anyone else should so believe.

I do not think that a violent attack by "3-4 guys" is a very plausible scenario, however.

The "first ones targeted"? The ones with the weapons, maybe, or maybe not. The one trying to get my weapon may be first.

Back to the topic. How many rounds? Dunno.

Some alleged average means nothing to me.
 
Simple answer

I think the the reason there is even a debate on this topic is simple. As well as the answer is simple. "METT-TC"

- But great discussion thus far.
 
Its a scene that has been done several times, different ways, but my favorite is from a comedy I no longer remember the name of..

good guy with a gun, facing a bunch of bad guys (armed various ways)

Head bad guy taunts good guy, saying
"What you gonna do? You can't shoot ALL of us!"

reply: "No, but I can shoot YOU!"

Head bad guy: (pauses)".. hmm I always forget that part!"

I believe that there is a significant difference between facing a group of street punks and facing a squad of fanatical IJN "marines" in a Banzai charge.

For the latter a belt fed full auto would not be undergunned. But, what are your chances of facing that?

For those of you who think a revolver will be ...inadequate, I suggest you look at what Bernard Goetz did (both right AND wrong) with one.
Draw your own conclusions...
 
I believe that there is a significant difference between facing a group of street punks and facing a squad of fanatical IJN "marines" in a Banzai charge.
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So do I.

For those of you who think a revolver will be ...inadequate...
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I don't think there is any basis for thinking that a revolver will be inadequate.

It's just that, all other things being equal, some tools will afford the user who can use them a better chance of success. A better trigger pull, a better grip, better balance, and a longer sighting radius can all help.

And yes, up to a point, more rounds, six being better than five, seven batter than six....

And, of course, adequate terminal ballistics.
 
I'd like to commend OldMarksman for keeping this whole thing on track.

There are no simple answers as I am learning and their are too many variables.

My original thought was to separate the Wheels from the Semi People, then take it from there. In that respect, it went well.

My own belief that we are being manipulated by forces bigger than we are is still there. But what really is wonderful is that most of you have a pretty good grasp on reality and also the conditions around where you live and/or work.
Some live in a big city where crime is high and some live in an area were it's almost non existent. Hence, different needs and actions. Some think the sky is falling and some don't. etc. etc.etc.

Thank you all for one heck of an interesting discussion and keep it going as long as you all want.

Doc
 
In the Self defense/home defense situations I have seen...

1. A light turning on the kitchen scared away the intruder
2. A broom being held by an 80 yr smacking the intruder as he crawled through a window scared him off
3. A gun shot in the air scared off an intruder as he was entering my friends house. It turned out to be a drunk person who 'claimed' they were looking for a place to sleep and didnt think anyone was home
4. During a large fight a gun shot in the air had all 20 people running scared.
5. While I was away and we lived in a city a drunk/high 20 yr old kid tried to break into my place while my girlfriend was there alone. He wouldnt leave even at gun point by the cops, they had to fully tackle him but no shots fired. Shots would have been fired had he come through the door he was beating down in my basement. He probably would have kept going after being shot too as it took 5 cops to hold down this raging 150 pounder.

I have a number of other stories too with 0-1 shots being fired and if they were it was in the air to scare someone and it worked. The point - sometimes no rounds are needed. Most likely 1 shot in air or showing your gun is enough to be safe. Having said that, it could take a lot more and I am sure there are plenty of stories where people needed more. Obviously, the more rounds you can carry safely and comfortably, the better. However, you probably have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than being in a situation where you dont have enough rounds unless you are a cop or vacationing in iraq. But there is no magic number. The best answer is the number you feel comfortable with.
 
My main problem with DAO pocket snubbies is I don't shoot them accurately enough to make head shots. I look at my S&W 442 as a get off me - point blank - gun. The DAO trigger on the gun sucks in comparison to my M&P 38 spl, K22, & Ruger Securit Six.

There may come a time when I need to do a head shot on a BG holding a love one at gun point. Not going to try at any distance past arms length with a 5 shot snubby.

I don't know what pants you all wear, but pocket carry sucks for sitting in a vehicle with jeans on. How you gonna get that thing out of your pocket in time to react?

I'll stick with my mid to full size guns with a reload. I know I can hit with them.
 
Posted by adamBomb:
The point - sometimes no rounds are needed.
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True.

Most likely 1 shot in air or showing your gun is enough to be safe.
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First, you really, really do not want to fire warning shots.

Second, you do not want to display your gun to scare someone. Know threshold for legal justification in your jurisdiction.
 
The whole question lies in variables. A person genuinely can face a band of crazed lunatics rioting after a football game, or whatever other people riot over. People died during the rodney king riots. At the other end of the line we have a couple bad news bears type punks who want to steal your lunch money with a kitchen knife.

Somebody once remarked that NO GUN is big enough to take to a gunfight if you don't know all of the variables. That's why we use cruise missiles. Nobody gets hurt if the mission fails.

OTOH, you also have a point of absolutely ridiculous faith in a weapon. A paring knife, a .22 lr derringer, so forth, it would take a near miracle to stop a hardened thug, a man who has spent a few years in maximum security.

Here is my formula.

Assess the greatest possible risk factor as far as an opponent. Myself, I believe that the likelihood of a terminator showing up at my door is awfully low. I don't expect that I'll ever be placed in a situation that presents a threat level that can't be dealt with by a9mm or .38/.357.

Assess the probabllity that you will be confronted in a life or death situation at all. I have already done so, and my carry status was adequate. At some point over the next 10-20 years it would not surprise me to be in the situation again.

Weigh the possibility that there will be multiple assailants that will stand their ground and keep coming. Heck, there are no gangs here, the probability that a half dozen killer thugs would confront me is almost zero. So, the probability that I would be alright with a revolver is still just fine.

The possibilty of eventually needing a firearm is pretty good, so I have one. the possibility that I will need something bigger than a .25 acp is obvious. The possibility that I will eventually have to use my carry 9mm against a charging grizzly is so slim as to be ridiculous.

So, I choose a 9mm with 16 rounds, a .380 with seven, and on other occasions, a .357 with only six. Any one of them will take care of me, with maybe a 99% probability.

By not carrying a .45 or far bigger gun, I am taking the risk that something will happen that I am not able to handle. An angry bull escaped from the stockards, a feral hog while camping, a really angry tweaker.

Variables in the equation always mess up carefully thought out plans. Don't worry about the 1% that you can't control, and plan for the 99% that you will probably encounter. Then carry whatever you want.
 
Posted by briandg:
Assess the probabllity that you will be confronted in a life or death situation at all. I have already done so, and my carry status was adequate. At some point over the next 10-20 years it would not surprise me to be in the situation again.

Weigh the possibility that there will be multiple assailants that will stand their ground and keep coming. Heck, there are no gangs here, the probability that a half dozen killer thugs would confront me is almost zero. So, the probability that I would be alright with a revolver is still just fine.

The possibilty of eventually needing a firearm is pretty good, so I have one. the possibility that I will need something bigger than a .25 acp is obvious. The possibility that I will eventually have to use my carry 9mm against a charging grizzly is so slim as to be ridiculous.
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I agree with almost all of that, with one minor exception.

Graph the number of assailants on the x axis and your best assessment of the probability for each on the y axis. By far the highest probability would be for zero assailants, or no attack at all, in most places.

For various reasons I think the number with the next highest probability is two assailants. The probability for one would, I think, be at least somewhat lower, for various reasons. For three, I think, the probability would be still lower. And much lower for four, and so on.

So, I see something of a bimodal distribution, with a very high probability at zero and a much lower probability centered at around two persons.

The shape this hypothetical curve would vary--higher in some places and lower in others.

Considering the severity of the potential consequences and the fact that there would be very little involved in mitigating the risk by carrying a gun, I choose to do so.

Now, I'm not quite as confident as some people seem to be that I could defend against two assailants with a reasonable margin of safety wit h a five shot revolver. My seven shot 686+ is a different story, but it is not very good for concealed carry.

So, I choose a 9mm with 16 rounds, a .380 with seven, and on other occasions, a .357 with only six. Any one of them will take care of me, with maybe a 99% probability.
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I carry eight, and I think somewhat more would be better.

I would never assess my probability of success in the event of a real use of force incident at anywhere near as high as 99%.
 
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Personally I feel that should I need to stop a threat and it only requires 1-3 shots, I have no problems with having 11-13 remaining bullets in my xd subcompact. I am considering getting a single stack, which I would probably carry a reload for, despite the probability of not needing it.
 
Doc Holliday 1950 said:
I have researched this question as to what is the Average shots fired by non LEO's for self defense. I keep coming up with 2. "The perceived need for massive quantities of ammo, reloading, and precision shooting at distance is largely a figbar of people's imaginations." this is a quote from The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings.
So my question is. Have we been brain washed into carrying weapons that have mags that have 10-15-20+ rounds and why?
I expect a lot of heat on this post. However, I really expect some real personal answers on this. If anyone cares why I asked this question, it's because of 99% of the guys and Ladies that I see at my range using Semis that fire 10-15 or 20+ rounds at such close range that you could spit further that that distance.

Last, I guess that the answers to my post will depend on those who carry Wheels vs. those who carry Semi's

Respectfully,

Doc
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Speaking only for myself, I find piece of mind in a larger magazine. Sure, statisticaly I'll never need all 15+1 rounds, but it's not about 'need'.

I also like the larger grip of double-stack pistols.

I'm responsable with my gun and so there's no danger in my having more rounds available.
 
Winners don't plan to win the average gunfight. They plan to win a reasonable worst case event.

I don't think there is a reliable database on civilian defensive gun uses, so law enforcement data are the best surrogate data.

Los Angeles County publishes officer use of force reports annually. In a recent year there were around 40 officers who fired their weapons on the job (outside the range). As I recall the average shots fired was about 2 or 3, but one officer fired 18 shots in one incident.

There is a reason why the typical LEO loadout is a loaded pistol and two spare mags. No one ever complained about carrying too much ammo after a gunfight. If you insist on planning for the average gunfight, sell your gun, because the average person lives his life with no need to use a gun in self defense.
 
The whole discussion is simple. No one has ever shown me, that carrying a Glock 19, with one G17 extra magazine is not a good idea. I conceal it well.

I can take a head shot at 7m, Truglo sights, 4lb clean trigger. Can not assure that with a Chiefs Special (if I owned one!) the grip on my G19 4thGen is perfect. The only misfire I ever had was a damaged cartridge.

The 147g Ranger's are as good as they get.

I have no compunction about damaging anyone who threatens me or mine, I have done that.

A major argument on being able to hit well at 50m, is that there would be no legal justification for that kind of accuracy.

Move that kind of marksmanship to a sneaker toe, sticking out from behind a dumpster! Small target at 15m, same stuff.

In speaking to fellow shooters on this subject, over many years, the mere fact of shooting an other human is not assured! Amount of rounds, type of weapon, is immaterial.
 
I also think where you live and are going to be comes into play somewhat. Where I live- Maybe 2 rounds would be enough, Now if I lived in New York, Chicago or so, then maybe 18 in pistol and 4 more mags with me. To run out while still in danger of life- That would be a bad thing. To have extra left over when you get home- That is ok. To have never had to pull it and shoot it is the best of all.
 
Posted by 4runnerman:
Where I live- Maybe 2 rounds would be enough,...
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Maybe. iI certainly wouldn't want to count on it.

Now if I lived in New York, Chicago or so, then maybe 18 in pistol and 4 more mags with me
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In just what kind of lawful self dense encounter do you envision being able to use that kind of ordnance load before being overcome?
 
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