how many rounds

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"I brought too much ammo."
Said no one, ever, after a defensive shooting or in the middle of a gun fight.

Since I can't predict the future I choose to be prepared with a modern means of self defense.

Why do I carry a light weight, accurate, reliable, semi-auto that holds more than 10 rds?


Multiple Attackers.

http://www.ky3.com/news/local/4-arr...ies-in-downtown-springfield/21048998_34839036

http://www.ktxs.com/news/brownwood-bulletin-4-arrested-for-aggravated-assault-shots-fired/35411352

http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2015/08/four_men_arrested_in_connection_with_barnegat_shoo.html

http://kdvr.com/2015/08/19/4-men-arrested-in-kidnapping-menacing-assault-of-female-captives/

https://kutv.com/news/local/4-men-arrested-in-connection-with-orem-stabbing

http://www.ktbs.com/story/30094068/police-3-men-arrested-in-home-burglary-shooting-in-hop

http://pasoroblesdailynews.com/four-paso-men-arrested-for-robbery-drug-charges/41480/

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...s-station-robbery-in-macomb-township/25375072

http://www.kpho.com/story/30027371/3-men-sought-in-phoenix-restaurant-holdup?autostart=true

How about crooks wearing body armor?

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2015/07/man_wearing_bulletproof_vest_p.html

http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/ne...uns-hq-plaza-wore-bullet-proof-vest/30953567/

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-man-bullet-proof-big-lots-20150716-story.html

http://www.insidesocal.com/sgvcrime/2015/09/20/25564/

http://www.wcvb.com/news/man-arrested-with-gun-body-armor-at-boston-medical-center/32450848
 
I agree with the OP to the extent of having 10-17 rounds of 9mm/40 for self defense is probably an "overkill" for 99.999% of all SD situations. However, why would you not carry a magazine full if your gun allows it. I would feel perfectly SD ready and capable with a 6 shot revolver or a 15 round semi-auto. Have we been brain washed into it? Perhaps. That is a bit nebulous. If the "enemy" has the capacity, then the theory would be that we need to match or exceed their capacity, though this is not necessarily true. One correctly placed shot is all that is truly needed, but things don't always go to plan.

I am not a capacity junkie so to speak and a 5 shot J is probably just fine but why not carry a GLOCK 26 with 10 to 12 rounds for basically the same real estate? Why not give yourself every option to succeed?
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Yup.

What I have never understood is people who carry an extra one or two magazines each with 10-15 rounds. It is not wrong, it is their right, and I don't judge about it. I just don't understand what self defense situation they think they will find themselves in that would warrant that.

All can change based on how the society changes. Right now there are not roving, armed gangs in the street in a world without order and law.
 
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However, my question is under "normal circumstances" to carry and shoot that many rounds is very rare.
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I don't see ANY "normal circumstances" in a self defense shootout. You can, with statistics, create an "average", but it is not "normal".

The main issue I have with statistical averages is that while they are a real number, they are not reality. Statistics and averages tell you what is most likely, NOT what is actually needed. Because what is actually needed cannot be calculated, and can only be recognized AFTER the fact, and ONLY applies to the incident you are looking at.

Another thing is that no matter what various statistics say about what is most likely or what is average, reality is that when you are in that situation, you odds are always the same, 50/50. No matter what it is, either it is, or it isn't. There is no third option.

It MAY be that only 1 in 100 needs more than 2 rounds, but your odds of being that 1 in 100 are 50%. The philosophy is "hope for the best, but plan for the worst".

To keep things simple, lets use small numbers..two shootings, one badguy takes one hit and is stopped. The other takes 3 hits before he is out of the fight. Now, your average is 2 hits are needed. Since the average is 2, would you choose a Deringer? Or something that held more shots?

2 would be fine in the first case, but in the second case, you're coming up short. When your life is on the line, you don't want "average", you don't want "most likely", you want as close as you can get to "certain".

one fellow I read on the web had it all very precisely calculated, using all kinds of factors including FBI hit probabilities and other things, came up with the fact that he needed to carry at least 26 rounds to be able to ensure two hits. The guy sure knew his math, and I could not question his figures. I did question his grasp of reality, though. :D

Remember, according to math, half the people you meet in this world are below average intelligence....:eek::p
 
As a funny aside many years ago on some forum or another folks were talking EDC and some dude posted something to the effect of I carry ......
GLOCK 17 with 4 extra mags
GLOCK 26 with 4 extra mags
Baton
Pepper spray
Two folding knives
Handcuffs (not a Leo)
Multi tool
Two flashlights
Keys wallet etc etc etc.

He finished with the way I see it I am ready for anything. The next reply was.

"Oh yeah, what if you have to swim :D " I started doing the slow clap in my head.
 
As a funny aside many years ago on some forum or another folks were talking EDC and some dude posted something to the effect of I carry ......
GLOCK 17 with 4 extra mags
GLOCK 26 with 4 extra mags
Baton
Pepper spray
Two folding knives
Handcuffs (not a Leo)
Multi tool
Two flashlights
Keys wallet etc etc etc.

He finished with the way I see it I am ready for anything. The next reply was.

"Oh yeah, what if you have to swim " I started doing the slow clap in my head.
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That's hilarious.

I'm not normally one to judge, but here it goes....Someone carrying all that on a daily basis who isn't employed as a police officer is a little too paranoid. Two folding knives....haha.:rolleyes:
 
Could someone describe what a roving street gang looks like? I've never seen one. They must be as scarce as polar bears where I live.
 
OldMarksman,

So you doubt my info, please look carefully at my post. "this is a quote from The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings". I certainly did not make this up.
You don't have to like this quote. It's only a starting place for this discussion and not my humble opinion.

Also, if you double this estimate like you state, then you have 4 shots which most revolvers easily have.

Doc
 
Posted by cslinger:
Assuming you are already preparing for an unlikely worst case scenario doesn't it stand to reason that you should prepare for the worst case of the worst case?
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I do not know how one would go about doing that. Body armor? Bulletproof car? Run flat tires?

Regarding a firearm, I happen to believe that in a lawful defensive situation, there is probably a practical upper limit to how many rounds someone would ever be able to use before being seriously harmed. I can (and might well) shoot four or five rounds very quickly, if I can draw and fire quickly enough.

If there is a second assailant, I could shoot more, if circumstances allow.

I would like to have a reserve, if a third (the driver, perhaps) driver comes around to see what transpired.

But I cannot see how a very large magazine could equip one for "the worst case of the worst case".

I carry a firearm with a capacity of 7+1, because it is easy to carry and to use. I sometimes add a backup in a weak hand vast pocket when I'm strapped into the driver seat.

Is 7+1 enough? I would like a couple more....
 
I find this comparison of CCW and police fundamentally flawed. The objectives are different in many ways. The police are to defeat, overcome, and take into custody. Not so for the CCW person, their ONLY objective is to extract their butt from the situation.

Different objectives different requirements.
 
Posted by garryc:
I find this comparison of CCW and police fundamentally flawed. The objectives are different in many ways. The police are to defeat, overcome, and take into custody. Not so for the CCW person, their ONLY objective is to extract their butt from the situation.

Different objectives different requirements.
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Very true. Should I shoot, and the assailants flee, it is over, as far as I am concerned.

Not so with the sworn officer.
 
You miss my point of yes there is a practical limit. My example centered around a j frame vs a GLOCK 26. Given both choices (insert some other itty bitty semi auto if need be ) why not take the 11-13 shots vs the 5 for a similar amount of carry difficulty. Not to mention the fact it would be likely easier to shoot for most folks. Now me personally capacity is not generally a deciding factor or at least a primary one. A GLOCK 17 vs a CZSp01. One holds more ammo. I could care less 17/19 or 15/17 etc. I do prefer a minimum of 9 in a semi auto just well cuz. 8+1

My personal take is assuming multiple attackers 10 rounds is probably the point of diminishing returns as if the first couple who get hit don't cause the rest to flee you will likely be over powered at that point.

Again I don't genuinely care what folks carry and I cannot say carrying a j frame in my life makes me nervous but there are a fair number of documented instances of a single target taking a bunch of large caliber handgun rounds before stopping or fleeing. Shot placement shot placement shot placement. But I want as many chances to get the placement right as I can comfortably have. :)

There is also the argument that with a bigger gun comes better sights, easier handling, more recoil mitigation, longer sight radius and a whole host of benefits that are likely overlooked but at least as if no more important then capacity.
 
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Keep in mind I am only using a j frame and GLOCK 26 as examples not as absolutes.

Also keep in mind in any confrontation with me there will be at least one person fleeing, probably screaming like a little girl.....me:eek::D. I think it was someone on this forum who used to say that if he ever had to discharge his pistol it might as well be the starter pistol for the fat mans 500 yard dash. I don't disagree.
 
You miss my point of yes there is a practical limit. My example centered around a j frame vs a GLOCK 26. Given both choices (insert some other itty bitty semi auto if need be ) why not take the 11-13 shots vs the 5 for a similar amount of carry difficulty. Not to mention the fact it would be likely easier to shoot for most folks.
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Quite simply, the reason to choose the 5 shot firearm is that you are more comfortable with the j frame and shoot it better, especially with the first shot.
 
Posted by Doc Holliday 1950:
"this is a quote from The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings". I certainly did not make this up.
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The quote was ""The perceived need for massive quantities of ammo, reloading, and precision shooting at distance is largely a figbar of people's imaginations."

I do not disagree with that at all.

What you said was "I have researched this question as to what is the Average shots fired by non LEO's for self defense. I keep coming up with 2."

I disagree that "2" is a good average. If you limited your research to reading the article by Claude Werner in The Thinking Gunfighter, you did see two.

Claude said that the most likely, the median and the average were--believe it or not--two. Think about it. Can you really visualize such a distribution? Would you believe it?

Claude says he took his data from "The Armed Citizen". Okay. But in Lessons from the street, Tom Givens gives us different data. And another data set compiled on another Tennessee city gives us something different.

Now , most of the incidents in the latter two compilations occurred out of doors. The vast majority of the cases reported in "The Armed Citizen" occurred indoors. The nature the confrontations are likely to be very different.

From Werner:

"In 80% of cases, the firearm was obtained from a place of storage, frequently in another room.
...
" Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear."​

In such conditions, the use of two shots might make sense. The defender has all kinds of time, and is prepared, and the attacker's location is known.

Two shots for two invaders? We almost always see at least two here in town. I would never count on two shots.

Also, if you double this estimate like you state, then you have 4 shots which most revolvers easily have.
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I said "trained to shoot two times that number or more immediately".

That's to try to stop one attacker as quickly as possible. It might suffice.

But all indications are that, in the very unlikely event that one is ever attacked, the chances are even or better that there will be two or maybe more of them.

I've read "The Armed Citizen" with interest for decades. Interesting reading. I wouldn't try to conclude anything from it.

I read Claude Werner's articles regularly. He is an accomplished IDPA competitor and a recognized shooting instructor. One thing in which he stands out is that he still teaches tactical revolver shooting, including snubs. That's getting very rare.
 
Posted by cslinger:
My example centered around a j frame vs a GLOCK 26. Given both choices (insert some other itty bitty semi auto if need be ) why not take the 11-13 shots vs the 5 for a similar amount of carry difficulty. Not to mention the fact it would be likely easier to shoot for most folks. Now me personally capacity is not generally a deciding factor or at least a primary one. A GLOCK 17 vs a CZSp01. One holds more ammo. I could care less 17/19 or 15/17 etc. I do prefer a minimum of 9 in a semi auto just well cuz. 8+1

My personal take is assuming multiple attackers 10 rounds is probably the point of diminishing returns as if the first couple who get hit don't cause the rest to flee you will likely be over powered at that point.

Again I don't genuinely care what folks carry and I cannot say carrying a j frame in my life makes me nervous but there are a fair number of documented instances of a single target taking a bunch of large caliber handgun rounds before stopping or fleeing. Shot placement shot placement shot placement. But I want as many chances to get the placement right as I can comfortably have.

There is also the argument that with a bigger gun comes better sights, easier handling, more recoil mitigation, longer sight radius and a whole host of benefits that are likely overlooked but at least as if no more important then capacity.
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All excellent points.
 
Posted by RJM:
Quite simply, the reason to choose the 5 shot firearm is that you are more comfortable with the j frame and shoot it better, especially with the first shot.
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"Better" has to include "more rapidly".

The J Frame is notoriously difficult for most people to shoot well. For some of us, the light weight ones are not conducive to sufficient practice.

I would never advise anyone to rely on the first shot in a self defense incident.
 
I love reading all of the statistics that come out in a thread like this. The fact is that ALL statistics have flaws in them, and can only be applied under the conditions in which they were gathered. Will my hypothetical BG experience be the same as the ones that were used in the calculations? Who knows?

What I do know is that there are people out there who do bad things and hurt other people for their own gain/pleasure/whatever, and I want to be prepared to protect myself from them if I should happen to become one of their targets. That is why I carry. To extend that reasoning, just because most cases only involve the need for 2 or 3 shots doesn't mean mine will be that way, so I carry a larger capacity gun. Will having 12+1 be detrimental if I only need 2 or 3? No. Will having 5 when I need 6 or more be detrimental? Yes. If I can carry it comfortably without causing myself other problems, why not have more? I don't see it as being brainwashed. It is simply my conclusion based on the available info, nothing more.
 
"I brought too much ammo."
Said no one, ever, after a defensive shooting or in the middle of a gun fight.

Since I can't predict the future I choose to be prepared with a modern means of self defense.

Why do I carry a light weight, accurate, reliable, semi-auto that holds more than 10 rds?


Multiple Attackers.

http://www.ky3.com/news/local/4-arre...48998_34839036

http://www.ktxs.com/news/brownwood-b...fired/35411352

http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/20...egat_shoo.html

http://kdvr.com/2015/08/19/4-men-arr...male-captives/

https://kutv.com/news/local/4-men-ar...-orem-stabbing

http://www.ktbs.com/story/30094068/p...hooting-in-hop

http://pasoroblesdailynews.com/four-...charges/41480/

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3...nship/25375072

http://www.kpho.com/story/30027371/3...autostart=true

How about crooks wearing body armor?

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...of_vest_p.html

http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/new...vest/30953567/

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...716-story.html

http://www.insidesocal.com/sgvcrime/2015/09/20/25564/

http://www.wcvb.com/news/man-arreste...enter/32450848
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That's a lot of research. Now post a link where non LEOs became victims after they ran out of ammo or shot bad guys wearing body armor.
 
"Better" has to include "more rapidly".
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Why? Better I would think would include more accurately before I would say it has to include more rapidly. You want your bullets to go where you want them to...you are responsible for them, afterall.

Besides, shooting a J frame, or in my case the sp101 (I only have owned the steel framed ones, and have no idea what those light weight ones are like, I wouldn't buy one anyway) isn't all that difficult for me, even unloading the entire 6 shots quickly (5 in the case of a j frame) I've shot them for years though. The key, for me, is to use a round that isn't +++++ppp+++++ and find one that is easily controlled.

My old carry guns used to be a Glock 27, XD 9 compact, and then a Sip p232. I find the sp101 to be the better gun for me followed closely by the p232 (which really didn't have a huge capacity advantage anyway). I just shot those better, and also practiced with them more.
 
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"Better" has to include "more rapidly".


Why? Better I would think would include more accurately before I would say it has to include more rapidly. You want your bullets to go where you want them to...you are responsible for them, afterall.
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It would seem to me that in a two way gun fight, being able to land your shots into the bad guy before he lands his in you would be a distinct advantge.
 
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