gbclarkson
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A frequent poster on this forum uses a signature that says something like: "overkill has never failed".
how many rounds
- Thread starter Doc Holliday 1950
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I agree with Carmady 100 percent. Your ability to quickly draw your weapon, get it on target and accurately deliver 1 or 2 shots is the most critical part of a self defense situation. Many attacks happen quickly and at short range and if your no better than Barney Fife at drawing and shooting, it makes no difference how many rounds your magazine holds.
BigMikey76
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You just don't see enough Police Academy references these days. Now I'm gonna have to look for it on Netflix...
458winshooter
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rounds used
I am not a LEO nor have I ever been in a gun fight like you speak of thankfully.My .02 is that there are many instructors are teaching spray and pray tactics.When I took my CWP class there were several women in the class and they were told to keep firing until the target was neutralized or incopasitated.Marksmanship was not a high priority,because that no matter what you are using you are in a high stress situation and will not likely score a one shot stop.I know that this sounds prickly but just repeating what I was taught.
I am not a LEO nor have I ever been in a gun fight like you speak of thankfully.My .02 is that there are many instructors are teaching spray and pray tactics.When I took my CWP class there were several women in the class and they were told to keep firing until the target was neutralized or incopasitated.Marksmanship was not a high priority,because that no matter what you are using you are in a high stress situation and will not likely score a one shot stop.I know that this sounds prickly but just repeating what I was taught.
I don't consider the J frame easier to carry than the G26. I carry the G26 or a 40 Shield or a P-64. Also a spare mag, a 7 shot in the shield, a G17 mag for the G26.
I do consider 27 rounds overkill though. I figure if the empty 10 rounder drops my crap is in the fan.
I do consider 27 rounds overkill though. I figure if the empty 10 rounder drops my crap is in the fan.
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Years ago I had the belief that you never should need more then 2 or 3 rounds in a SD situation. My EDC was a 4 in 1911 that I only kept 6 rounds in.
One night I had taken my 6 and 7 year old boys cat fishing at the end of a long narrow point. We were there about 4 hours when 5 guys came in and started fishing about 30 yards from us and began partaking in illegal drugs (I assume by their actions) they began getting rowdy so I told the kids that we had to leave. At that point I made the mistake of pulling my phone out to let my wife know we were on our way. They assumed that I was calling the cops and got aggressive. The 5 of them began approaching us saying that they were going to "beat the living $&#* out of you" . We were cornered but they were not yet at a distance that I felt was an immediate threat. I was able to defuse the situation without having to draw my weapon, thankfully.
After reflecting on this situation I realized that in a worst case scenario the best outcome would have been that I made 5 one shot stops with over 83% accuracy under pressure, on moving targets, not very likely. Right there I decided that a higher capacity weapon may be needed. I still don't see the need to carry 30 rounds in spare mags but 10-12 rounds is comforting to have if needed. YMMV
One night I had taken my 6 and 7 year old boys cat fishing at the end of a long narrow point. We were there about 4 hours when 5 guys came in and started fishing about 30 yards from us and began partaking in illegal drugs (I assume by their actions) they began getting rowdy so I told the kids that we had to leave. At that point I made the mistake of pulling my phone out to let my wife know we were on our way. They assumed that I was calling the cops and got aggressive. The 5 of them began approaching us saying that they were going to "beat the living $&#* out of you" . We were cornered but they were not yet at a distance that I felt was an immediate threat. I was able to defuse the situation without having to draw my weapon, thankfully.
After reflecting on this situation I realized that in a worst case scenario the best outcome would have been that I made 5 one shot stops with over 83% accuracy under pressure, on moving targets, not very likely. Right there I decided that a higher capacity weapon may be needed. I still don't see the need to carry 30 rounds in spare mags but 10-12 rounds is comforting to have if needed. YMMV
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by Sport45:
I had decided several summers ago when I had not been carrying to not strap on a firearm for a trip to a gasoline station and a store. A very scary encounter occurred while I was refueling. I displayed my Blackthorn prominently, stopped at under the three gallon mark, and drove away fast.
I started carrying seven years ago this month. Except for the incident mentioned and one other (gun free zone) when I was not armed, I have only once seen an immediate need for self defense; I blundered into a robbery about to happen. My reaction, which did not require drawing, caused the robber to abort, and he and his driver left empty handed.
At the time, I was carrying an Airweight J Frame.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you have never needed a weapon?
Many of us find ourselves in that position from time to time.
I had decided several summers ago when I had not been carrying to not strap on a firearm for a trip to a gasoline station and a store. A very scary encounter occurred while I was refueling. I displayed my Blackthorn prominently, stopped at under the three gallon mark, and drove away fast.
I started carrying seven years ago this month. Except for the incident mentioned and one other (gun free zone) when I was not armed, I have only once seen an immediate need for self defense; I blundered into a robbery about to happen. My reaction, which did not require drawing, caused the robber to abort, and he and his driver left empty handed.
At the time, I was carrying an Airweight J Frame.
If 5 unarmed bad guys rush you, you'll never get to use that added capacity.
If 5 armed bad guys are firing upon you, you'll never get to run out of ammo.
If 5 unarmed guys know you are armed, they tend to have trouble deciding which of them get to be used to emplty your gun on so that those remaining can attack you when you're unarmed, and after the first one falls, they tend to rethink that decision.
I think most people carry what they feel is appropriate to defend against the scenario that keeps them up at night. If your afraid of a single, knife wielding mugger in the parking lot, a j frame S&W is more than enough.
That being said, every encounter is unique. Are you acting proactively or reactively, is there escape options, cover, concealment, and opportunity to call 911, are you willing to present yourself as a target in order to get a good shot, or will you cower being cover and hope your position isn't overrun?
Being prepared to defend the lives in the movie theater from a James Holmes type requires more hardware than defending your lonesome against a hype looking for an easy twenty bucks.
Also factor in your own adrenaline rush, elevated heart rate, sweaty palms and your marksmanship probably isn't as good as it was last time you were on the range using proper form and enjoying the safety around.
I know what I am comfortable carrying. If 5 rounds is enough for you, that's cool. I just wouldn't discourage others from carrying more.
That being said, every encounter is unique. Are you acting proactively or reactively, is there escape options, cover, concealment, and opportunity to call 911, are you willing to present yourself as a target in order to get a good shot, or will you cower being cover and hope your position isn't overrun?
Being prepared to defend the lives in the movie theater from a James Holmes type requires more hardware than defending your lonesome against a hype looking for an easy twenty bucks.
Also factor in your own adrenaline rush, elevated heart rate, sweaty palms and your marksmanship probably isn't as good as it was last time you were on the range using proper form and enjoying the safety around.
I know what I am comfortable carrying. If 5 rounds is enough for you, that's cool. I just wouldn't discourage others from carrying more.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by imp:
The problem is that what some people "feel is appropriate" may or may not be based on informed opinion.
Nor should one conclude that a j frame will always be "more than enough" to stop an attacker timely.
That's probably pretty much on target.
The problem is that what some people "feel is appropriate" may or may not be based on informed opinion.
What may happen and what one may be "afraid of" should not be confused.
Nor should one conclude that a j frame will always be "more than enough" to stop an attacker timely.
Requires more than hardware.
In the very unlikely event that you are attacked, there is no reason to assume that you will be attended by only one person.
I once thought I was "comfortable" with an Airweight Centennial. I now carry something more capable, but I would not describe myself as highly confident that my training, my ability, or my equipment would necessarily keep me or mine from being injured.
How would one know?
Good.
Who am I to argue with what amount of ammo on hand will comfort the fears of a particular person. Be that 5 rounds or several hundred.
Everything is a compromise, the caliber, weapon, number of rounds, number of reloads....etc.
You make whatever choices you have to in an effort to feel protected from whatever threat you envision.
In the end, that's why people carry. It's not about statistics, it's about personal empowerment.
Everything is a compromise, the caliber, weapon, number of rounds, number of reloads....etc.
You make whatever choices you have to in an effort to feel protected from whatever threat you envision.
In the end, that's why people carry. It's not about statistics, it's about personal empowerment.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by imp:
In my opinion, round count is among the least important factors.
Start with training and practice.
I think there are some rather widespread beliefs that a crime of violence will most likely involve one assailant; that five shots should surely be enough to defend against it; and that the proper place for the double column semi auto is to handle some kind of gang attack.
I don't think those beliefs are supportable.
I do suspect that they probably stem from a couple of sources:
The antidote? Training.
Combat Focus Shooting, on the I. C. E. Personal Defense Network Tour, and also called Dynamic Focus Shooting at the Gander Mountain Academies, is an excellent choice.
They will allow one to bring a snub revolver.
I suspect that most people who bring one will acquire something else afterward.
Great--as long as what one "feels" and what one "envisions" reasonably reflect reality.
In my opinion, round count is among the least important factors.
Start with training and practice.
I think there are some rather widespread beliefs that a crime of violence will most likely involve one assailant; that five shots should surely be enough to defend against it; and that the proper place for the double column semi auto is to handle some kind of gang attack.
I don't think those beliefs are supportable.
I do suspect that they probably stem from a couple of sources:
- Screen fiction--the bad guy always drops instantly having been shot once; the good guy has plenty of time to shoot; and the good guy never misses;
- impressions gained at the range-- from slow fire practice at a stationary target that one has been thinking about since breakfast.
The antidote? Training.
Combat Focus Shooting, on the I. C. E. Personal Defense Network Tour, and also called Dynamic Focus Shooting at the Gander Mountain Academies, is an excellent choice.
They will allow one to bring a snub revolver.
I suspect that most people who bring one will acquire something else afterward.
Same pistol in same place, always.
One you have shot a lot, as in IDPA? For instance, hi cap, why not, no reason for or against.
Glock 19, 16 rounds, spare magazine, in case of malfunction, a G17 one. So on belt a G19 pistol, G17 magazine, Surefire LED Light.
Best Night sights, Truglo fiber optic. Extended slide release. 4lb trigger.
Drew pistol once, both youths fled. Thirty years ago, in Rochester.
Two gang bangers followed my Wife, around Publix, I was in Parking lot, reading. Cell call from my Wife, "I am being followed by two youths, pants hanging, they have no basket or cart"
"come out slow, I will be under the overhang, with parked Jeep" "Soon as you clear the door, walk a little quicker, follow the wall"
When the two youths saw me, my shirt undone, standing behind a marked Security Jeep, they ran like rabbits, across the parking lot, they had no vehicle!
They were 10m from me, when they saw me. If they had produced a weapon, I would have needed most likely 10 rounds, maybe? Double tap twice, more?
So 16 is not that much overkill, is it. And they were real incidents.
Not much in nearly 80 years, aye? (Spent 35 years in Canada, don't you know)
One you have shot a lot, as in IDPA? For instance, hi cap, why not, no reason for or against.
Glock 19, 16 rounds, spare magazine, in case of malfunction, a G17 one. So on belt a G19 pistol, G17 magazine, Surefire LED Light.
Best Night sights, Truglo fiber optic. Extended slide release. 4lb trigger.
Drew pistol once, both youths fled. Thirty years ago, in Rochester.
Two gang bangers followed my Wife, around Publix, I was in Parking lot, reading. Cell call from my Wife, "I am being followed by two youths, pants hanging, they have no basket or cart"
"come out slow, I will be under the overhang, with parked Jeep" "Soon as you clear the door, walk a little quicker, follow the wall"
When the two youths saw me, my shirt undone, standing behind a marked Security Jeep, they ran like rabbits, across the parking lot, they had no vehicle!
They were 10m from me, when they saw me. If they had produced a weapon, I would have needed most likely 10 rounds, maybe? Double tap twice, more?
So 16 is not that much overkill, is it. And they were real incidents.
Not much in nearly 80 years, aye? (Spent 35 years in Canada, don't you know)
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I have had two non combat confrontations with gang punks/thugs. I'm not discussing them.
I carry my glock without extra magazines. I carry my .380 with only the 7 rounds in it. I feel that I am capable of clearing a situation without involving extra rounds, but I don't really feel comfortable with only 7 in the .380. I carry a speed loader for revolvers.
Thousands of rounds of SHTF ammo is ridiculous. Hoarding it all anticipating outright war? no, most people I talk to are hoarding it for either home defense against looters, or to sell.
First, how many people are you willing to kill? You have 5k rounds. Will you really shoot people at your door step to save your canned spam, and how many will you kill before you succumb to grief?
I just laugh at the idea that ammo is the new currency. Really? every person in america, I suppose, has enough ammo to take them through a crisis. Who would you sell it to, and why? Jeeze, I'd give it away to safe people, and anyone else, why in the world would I give ammo to someone I don't know and can't completely trust with my life?
I have thousands of rounds stockpiled. Why? because I reload. I have thousands of rounds of brass. When I reload, I like to do it in blocks of 200 or larger. I like to keep it available, rather than having empty and unprocessed brass on a shelf. My huge ammo stockpile isn't because I want to stockpile it, it's because I want to keep it all loaded. There is a difference. I know what I like. I know that I'm not likely to just change my mind and abandon my favorite loads. I still keep several hundred rounds of good brass on and in case I want to try something new.
I carry my glock without extra magazines. I carry my .380 with only the 7 rounds in it. I feel that I am capable of clearing a situation without involving extra rounds, but I don't really feel comfortable with only 7 in the .380. I carry a speed loader for revolvers.
Thousands of rounds of SHTF ammo is ridiculous. Hoarding it all anticipating outright war? no, most people I talk to are hoarding it for either home defense against looters, or to sell.
First, how many people are you willing to kill? You have 5k rounds. Will you really shoot people at your door step to save your canned spam, and how many will you kill before you succumb to grief?
I just laugh at the idea that ammo is the new currency. Really? every person in america, I suppose, has enough ammo to take them through a crisis. Who would you sell it to, and why? Jeeze, I'd give it away to safe people, and anyone else, why in the world would I give ammo to someone I don't know and can't completely trust with my life?
I have thousands of rounds stockpiled. Why? because I reload. I have thousands of rounds of brass. When I reload, I like to do it in blocks of 200 or larger. I like to keep it available, rather than having empty and unprocessed brass on a shelf. My huge ammo stockpile isn't because I want to stockpile it, it's because I want to keep it all loaded. There is a difference. I know what I like. I know that I'm not likely to just change my mind and abandon my favorite loads. I still keep several hundred rounds of good brass on and in case I want to try something new.
I have been away a couple of days, but it looks like no one has responded to this. The math doesn't work - a five shot revolver won't do double taps on 3 or 4 guys.
I have posted this before, but my reason for changing from a J-frame to a G26 was simple math. You aren't going to get good hits with every round, and the figure bandied about at the time of my decision was a 20% hit rate for LEOs. It is pretty well accepted that handgun rounds are not reliable one-shot stops, so you need to plan on hitting each assailant hard at least twice. I wasn't a math major, but it seems to me that you need to get a 40% hit rate with a 5-shot revolver to get two solid hits on a single assailant. The problem then is that there are so many ways for the whole thing to go south: an extra miss or less-critical hit, a second assailant, or a BG that is just a wee bit tougher and requires a third hit, all mean that you don't have enough capacity.
Carry what you want - if you carry an NAA mini in .22LR you are better armed than most of the US population - but be honest with yourself about whether you are counting on intimidation or a psychological stop ending a conflict, or whether you are really capable of ending it decisively by physically incapacitating one or more potential attackers. We all have choices. But we are all subject to surprises, too.
It doesn't have to be war, or even TEOTWAWKI, my hoard is for the time when I can't get any more, or AFFORD to get any more, for any reason.
I have thousands of rounds of loaded ammo, and a somewhat similar amount of components. Most bought well before the current price jumps.
I cannot, today, replace it for what I paid to obtain or make it. And I do have to admit to an attitude similar to Smaug's, I will not part with even a single piece....it is ..precious to me...
From a posession standpoint, I think like a pilot. The pilot says "you can never have too much fuel, unless you are on fire!
You can't have too much ammo, unless you can't move it.
How much you carry on you is your business, but always remember that it is better to have it, and not need it, than to need it, and not have it!
Always.
+1 44 AMP.
Buy it cheap stack it deep.
You stock pile ammo &/or components for that day where you can't afford or find ammo. It's not for the zombie apocalypse it's for when it's not available.
Look at all these folks crying about the price or lack of availability of 22LR.
Look at the folks that couldn't fine 30-30.
Hindsight should've told them by now that maybe they should've stocked up on it when it was cheap or available.
Buy it cheap stack it deep.
You stock pile ammo &/or components for that day where you can't afford or find ammo. It's not for the zombie apocalypse it's for when it's not available.
Look at all these folks crying about the price or lack of availability of 22LR.
Look at the folks that couldn't fine 30-30.
Hindsight should've told them by now that maybe they should've stocked up on it when it was cheap or available.
You have both missed the point of my post. I know a couple guys who have put themselves into deep debt buying numerous AR and other firearms, and tons of ammo, for the sole purpose of being ready when the grid collapses. they aren't buying for personal use during the next ten years, one is speculating that he will eventually be able to sell it for $10 a round "someday" and the other genuinely seems to believe that the zombies will rise up and eat us all. none of these dudes that are stockpiling for emergency purposes, at the cost of putting food on the table and lights in the house are just making a mistake. The ten thousand+ rounds of ammo have become nothing but ten thousand rounds of ammo, not a life saving asset.
Pack away water, beans, rice, fuel, tools, aspirin, so forth. If you are buying ammo just because of an apocalypse, well, that's just wrong.
My stash of thousands of rounds is just like yours. I want to have a ton of ammo to use as I get around to it. My brother, on the other hand, bought 4 ar rifles when the clinton ban was almost over, on his 15% amex card, and gee, couldn't move them. The only apocalypse was his eventual economic problems, which were severe.
Pack away water, beans, rice, fuel, tools, aspirin, so forth. If you are buying ammo just because of an apocalypse, well, that's just wrong.
My stash of thousands of rounds is just like yours. I want to have a ton of ammo to use as I get around to it. My brother, on the other hand, bought 4 ar rifles when the clinton ban was almost over, on his 15% amex card, and gee, couldn't move them. The only apocalypse was his eventual economic problems, which were severe.
OldMarksman
Staff
How one should allocate investment resources will depend upon a lot of factors, not the least of which is how much one has to invest. Then there is the matter of projected need.
The subject is, however, not related to the thread.
The subject is, however, not related to the thread.
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