Pistol amunition is not ordinance.
how many rounds
- Thread starter Doc Holliday 1950
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4runnerman
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I live in a Very small town.When the cops get a call here it is for something like a speeder or a guy doing bleach burn outs
. Chicago- They have gangs there, 10 15 or 20 people coming at you. Taking in to account the 20% hit ratio that was mentioned here, Yes- 18 in the gun and 4 more mages in the pocket.
As for being over come- Hypothetical story here. you by yourself, 10 guys come after you. Now as long as you have rounds to shoot, I don't see them coming after you. They will stay where they are and just shoot back. I don't know of anyone that will run into a bullet. In this situation you have a better chance of surviving as long as you can keep them at bay till Police show up.
As for having that much Ammo on you- Is there a law against it?. If I have one mag or 5 mags, does that make it a crime?. In all Honesty-I have never and hope to never be in a situation that has even without a gun left me feeling in danger. Some day I am sure it will happen, so for now I can only think of what I would do and how I would react. I just know that if it happens, I sure ass hell don't want to be caught short on ammo to defend myself or my family. 2000 rounds of loaded ammo sitting at home is worthless in a empty pistol.
. Chicago- They have gangs there, 10 15 or 20 people coming at you. Taking in to account the 20% hit ratio that was mentioned here, Yes- 18 in the gun and 4 more mages in the pocket.As for being over come- Hypothetical story here. you by yourself, 10 guys come after you. Now as long as you have rounds to shoot, I don't see them coming after you. They will stay where they are and just shoot back. I don't know of anyone that will run into a bullet. In this situation you have a better chance of surviving as long as you can keep them at bay till Police show up.
As for having that much Ammo on you- Is there a law against it?. If I have one mag or 5 mags, does that make it a crime?. In all Honesty-I have never and hope to never be in a situation that has even without a gun left me feeling in danger. Some day I am sure it will happen, so for now I can only think of what I would do and how I would react. I just know that if it happens, I sure ass hell don't want to be caught short on ammo to defend myself or my family. 2000 rounds of loaded ammo sitting at home is worthless in a empty pistol.
Even in Chicago when was the last time there was a pitched gun battle of the length imagined above? Again I do think more is better as a general rule up to a point and history does bear out instances of a single threat taking lots of hits or multiple threats but the only pitched gun battle similar to what is described above that I can think of was that jeweler or diamond merchant who had several guns hidden in his shop when multiple assailants robbed him and even that battle wasn't a long affair.
I think folks should carry what they are comfortable with. I think software is way more important then hardware. I think reliability and shoot ability trump other factors. I think more is better is a simple truism but not necessarily an absolute must have.
I don't think he likelihood of a pitched gun battle outside of the military and only very rarely law enforcement is a likelihood worth preparing for at least in my world.
I think folks should carry what they are comfortable with. I think software is way more important then hardware. I think reliability and shoot ability trump other factors. I think more is better is a simple truism but not necessarily an absolute must have.
I don't think he likelihood of a pitched gun battle outside of the military and only very rarely law enforcement is a likelihood worth preparing for at least in my world.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by cslinger:
The other question I would have is just what it is that would make anyone think he or she would likely survive an extended gun battle long enough to have the opportunity yo use that much ammunition.
A sworn officer has the duty to pursue, and attempt to apprehend, fleeing suspects and my need several large capacity magazines, but I cannot environ any situation in they country in which a concealed carrier could have any practical need for that much for lawful self defense.
True for me, also.
The other question I would have is just what it is that would make anyone think he or she would likely survive an extended gun battle long enough to have the opportunity yo use that much ammunition.
A sworn officer has the duty to pursue, and attempt to apprehend, fleeing suspects and my need several large capacity magazines, but I cannot environ any situation in they country in which a concealed carrier could have any practical need for that much for lawful self defense.
It's my opinion - that capacity is the most overrated issue in selecting a carry weapon.../ and capacity is often used as a crutch, vs learning how to shoot, how to reload, etc...
I live in a large metropolitan area...and there are shootings most every day somewhere in the metroplex...but rarely, even annually, in the areas that I frequent.
I'm very comfortable carrying a 1911 ( 8 + 1 rds in .45 acp / 10 + 1 rds in 9mm) or most any single stack semi-auto ( sig 239 as an example - 7 +1 in .40 S&W or 8 +1 in 9mm ) or a 6 shot revolver in .357 Mag...(so call it 6 - 11 rounds that I carry ) ...and while I do carry a mag for reloading...in my view, its because the single biggest potential for a problem with a semi-auto is "mag failure".../ so the extra mag is there, just in case...and it has extra rounds in it of course...
But I think the statistics are right ...in all probability it will be over in a few seconds with a max of 4 or 5 rounds fired ....
But to improve my odds... I practice 2 - 3 times a week... Draw to 1 shot in 2.0 Sec / Draw to 3 shots in 3 sec - speed reloads, tactical reloads....and at ranges of between 3 yds to 10 yds. I'm older and slower than I used to be, but its my opinion that I can probably remove myself from the situation if the threat is beyond 10 yds...but I can still engage within 10 yds if necessary.
Carry the gun - and the platform and caliber - you shoot the best ...but the point is, practice with it ! ...and it will minimize the issue of capacity in my view...
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I saw, read or heard an instructor somewhere had a drill ...with your carry gun, draw from concealment - target is a full sized silhouette ( and primary target zone is nipple to nipple and a rectangle down to about belly button ( or 8 1/2" X 11" - to mark "the Tactical" center mass area ... ). At 3 yds Draw and fire 1 round in under 2.7 sec / at 5 yds draw and fire 1 in under 2.7 sec / at 7 yds same thing < 2.7 sec / at 8 Yds draw and Fire 2 rounds in under 2.7 sec. ( 5 shots, 5 points if you hit that rectangle...)...and the author's point essentially was, if you can't execute that drill, put the gun away ( until you can do it - by practicing ) ....and carry a cell phone...
and I see a lot of guys, at my local range, week in and week out --- that carry guns -- and they have no chance of passing that drill. But if they were to practice, work on their fundamentals, read, study their weaknesses - and work at it.... I think they would be able to run that drill at 100%.
I live in a large metropolitan area...and there are shootings most every day somewhere in the metroplex...but rarely, even annually, in the areas that I frequent.
I'm very comfortable carrying a 1911 ( 8 + 1 rds in .45 acp / 10 + 1 rds in 9mm) or most any single stack semi-auto ( sig 239 as an example - 7 +1 in .40 S&W or 8 +1 in 9mm ) or a 6 shot revolver in .357 Mag...(so call it 6 - 11 rounds that I carry ) ...and while I do carry a mag for reloading...in my view, its because the single biggest potential for a problem with a semi-auto is "mag failure".../ so the extra mag is there, just in case...and it has extra rounds in it of course...
But I think the statistics are right ...in all probability it will be over in a few seconds with a max of 4 or 5 rounds fired ....
But to improve my odds... I practice 2 - 3 times a week... Draw to 1 shot in 2.0 Sec / Draw to 3 shots in 3 sec - speed reloads, tactical reloads....and at ranges of between 3 yds to 10 yds. I'm older and slower than I used to be, but its my opinion that I can probably remove myself from the situation if the threat is beyond 10 yds...but I can still engage within 10 yds if necessary.
Carry the gun - and the platform and caliber - you shoot the best ...but the point is, practice with it ! ...and it will minimize the issue of capacity in my view...
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I saw, read or heard an instructor somewhere had a drill ...with your carry gun, draw from concealment - target is a full sized silhouette ( and primary target zone is nipple to nipple and a rectangle down to about belly button ( or 8 1/2" X 11" - to mark "the Tactical" center mass area ... ). At 3 yds Draw and fire 1 round in under 2.7 sec / at 5 yds draw and fire 1 in under 2.7 sec / at 7 yds same thing < 2.7 sec / at 8 Yds draw and Fire 2 rounds in under 2.7 sec. ( 5 shots, 5 points if you hit that rectangle...)...and the author's point essentially was, if you can't execute that drill, put the gun away ( until you can do it - by practicing ) ....and carry a cell phone...
and I see a lot of guys, at my local range, week in and week out --- that carry guns -- and they have no chance of passing that drill. But if they were to practice, work on their fundamentals, read, study their weaknesses - and work at it.... I think they would be able to run that drill at 100%.
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4runnerman
New member
I am not saying that would happen. I am mearly stating that If you end up with a gang coming at you, Most likley they will continue to fire at you, but as long as they hear shots coming back, maybe there is a chance they will not come running at you. With all the respect these thugs show law enforcement latley I have to wonder if they would leave. If I die in a gun fight-It sure is not going to be because I ran out of ammo. My carry is also a 1911 45 ACP- 8 plus one. So 3 or 4 mags is not a arsenal by any means.
themalicious0ne
New member
I learned in college that police hit their intended target 10% of the time. I think most self defense engagements are at point blank range. It totally depends on the engagement range, practice, barriers and your willingness to engage someone who is not directly attacking you. Say for instance an active shooter rather tHan a break in or robbery. If someone else is in danger for their life your engagement range may be a bit further. Not saying you will take more shots erratically but it all depends on your perceived mindset. Will you walk away when someone is in danger or engage. That is why I would consider more rounds.
Limnophile
New member
Of course not. As the man said, it's ordnance, not ordinance.
Ordnance is cannons, artillery and explosives. At best you could try to bend the definition enough to include NATO pistol ammo, but he wasn't talking about NATO amunition, only capacity.
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Is this the place to mention that I once posted the idea that a person could not be considered fully qualified with a firearm until he could make hits on a mounted man, shooting uphill in the dark. I was called out on it and so I deleted the requirement that the target be mounted. But what you have left is a scenario, however likely or unlikely, of a shooter in a theater. The floor is slanted and it's dark. But he'd probably be standing still at least. Just aim at the muzzle flashes.
Several people I know have been assaulted. The stories are similar. They were walking the dog, leaving work, or leaving school. One or two guys jumped out of the bushes or from between two cars, threw or wrestled them down, and proceded to rob and/ or sexually assault them.
If I were assaulted like that, I would prefer to have a revolver. Rolling around wrestling in the bushes, a semi-auto would all too easily get shoved out of battery. Or it would become a single shot when it was limp wristed at a funny angle, or shoved up against someone.
For a gunfight against multiple shooters, yeah, give me my CZ75 every time. But for the one or two guys trying to beat and rob me, I would prefer to have my hammerless 38 snub. I feel that's a much more likely scenario, so that's what I usually carry.
If I were assaulted like that, I would prefer to have a revolver. Rolling around wrestling in the bushes, a semi-auto would all too easily get shoved out of battery. Or it would become a single shot when it was limp wristed at a funny angle, or shoved up against someone.
For a gunfight against multiple shooters, yeah, give me my CZ75 every time. But for the one or two guys trying to beat and rob me, I would prefer to have my hammerless 38 snub. I feel that's a much more likely scenario, so that's what I usually carry.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by tallball:
If two people are trying to rob you and are armed with contact weapons, and if you are "rolling around wrestling in the bushes", you are in a world of hurt. Far better to stop both of them before the distance closes to within two arm lengths.
If one guy is trying to beat you, justifying the use of deadly force could be very difficult indeed. Perhaps easier if there are two, but still iffy.
If two people are trying to rob you and are armed with contact weapons, and if you are "rolling around wrestling in the bushes", you are in a world of hurt. Far better to stop both of them before the distance closes to within two arm lengths.
OldMarksman
Staff
Yes those are the most common examples. And there are tanks, rifles, pistols, ammunition, and other military vehicles...issued to military personnel.
So, no, pistol ammunition carried by a civilian is not ordnance. Nor is that pistol properly described as firepower or artillery, but we use such terms colloquially all the time.
If at no time, ever, no legally concealed carrier of pistols, had ever fired a bunch of rounds, in defense, then no I would say 16 rounds loaded up in a Glock 19, for instance. Is not required.
But yes, more than 16 rounds have been required. At least once.
So saying most likely only two rounds would be enough? Is playing the odds, sorry, I don't gamble, period.
But yes, more than 16 rounds have been required. At least once.
So saying most likely only two rounds would be enough? Is playing the odds, sorry, I don't gamble, period.
You live and travel only in the best of neighborhoods. Statistics show 2 shots are most likely going to be needed. You can't imagine a scenario where more than a few rounds would ever be needed. Who cares?! The question is, are you such a wimp that carrying an extra magazine or two is gonna reduce you to tears and incessant complaining? You're never gonna need a gun. Does it kill you to carry one? You're never gonna need an extra 20 rounds. Is it gonna kill you to carry it? If it were like carrying around a 60 lb. weight I could understand the hemming and hawing about having too much but really is it that tough on you? If your health insurance charged you an extra 5 dollars a year just in case an injury or illness would be catastrophic enough to cost more than 10 million dollars would you take it? I would. That's why I carry 15+1 and a couple extra mags. Because the catastrophic insurance is cheap.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by Brit:
The number if times that legally concealed carriers have fired firearms in defense is too small to draw any reliable conclusions in the first place. Additionally, the data have not been compiled.
Something other than information related to actual occurrences is needed for that kind of projection.
Whether one might ever needed 16 rounds is as uncertain as whether 6 will suffice one one occasion.
It's a judgment call.
I wouldn't so conclude.
The number if times that legally concealed carriers have fired firearms in defense is too small to draw any reliable conclusions in the first place. Additionally, the data have not been compiled.
Something other than information related to actual occurrences is needed for that kind of projection.
Whether one might ever needed 16 rounds is as uncertain as whether 6 will suffice one one occasion.
It's a judgment call.
Frankly, I think it's silly to carry all that, everyday.
Speaking of the cost of health insurance and catastrophic coverage and things you should do everyday to lessen your chances of dying early...you'd be better off doing an hour of cardio exercise everyday than worrying about having enough ammo to do a mag reload during a self defense scenario.
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