GRIP ANGLE real problem or individual choice?
- Thread starter threegun
- Start date
Double Naught Spy
New member
Okay, at least now you have realized that your logic isn't universal and you have capitulated for folks with disabilities. You still seem to have the perspective that since it isn't a problem for you that it isn't a problem for anyone else.
It is naive to believe that your situation is representative for everyone else.
DNS, I haven't capitulated here. I have stated many times that folks with disabilities or otherwise out of the norm are not included. "Normal" humans will adjust automatically. (Please note that I'm not trying to belittle those with disabilities).
My position however is based both on my own personal perspective and the tens of millions of shooters who easily move to and from platforms with differing grip angles.
Since those MILLIONS are able to easily adjust to anything as am I and we have eliminated folks with disabilities then it is apparent to me that it isn't a problem.
The firearms instructor I trained with over 30 years ago said this in a simple sentence.
“A gun should be the extension of your index finger.”
What he meant by that is holding the gun in your hand and pointing it at a target, with a natural grip, place your index finger along the side of the gun. The finger should align with the barrel. If it does not then it’s not optimum.
That does not mean that the gun won’t work but it’s just not the optimum angle to the hand.
His reasoning was and I found it to be true, you can point your finger at a point within 10 yards reasonably accurately. Both center and height. This is not looking down your finger but with your hand at your waist.
We did a simple experiment. From the hip at 7 yards without any practice slowly bring up the gun at your side and fire with the gun at hip height. You can’t look at the gun only the target.
You have to do this in a very safe location. Outside with a very large back stop which we had.
Try this with several different guns and you only get one try for each and you have to be honest with yourself.
The only practice you get is without the gun and only your index finger.
His reasoning for this was that in a fire fight you will rely on your natural instincts. You may not be able to use the sights. You can train to overcome a gun that does not naturally point when it’s in your hand but the important thing is to train with what you carry how you carry.
Spending all day at an indoor range and taking sighted shots only makes you good at target practice. That doesn’t make it a bad thing. But it’s not real world if you’re training for self defense.
And if you can’t hit a target at 7 yards without using the sights you need more training.
So is “Is grip angle a problem or more of an inconvience?”
Find out by doing the above test and test yourself. I have seen people that shoot a lot and carry every day try this and the first time they did it the bullet went over the targets head by about 3 feet.
Please don’t think that I am suggesting that hip shooting is the correct way to win a fight. This is simply a training exercise that will teach you your capabilities of naturally pointing the gun you carry.
“A gun should be the extension of your index finger.”
What he meant by that is holding the gun in your hand and pointing it at a target, with a natural grip, place your index finger along the side of the gun. The finger should align with the barrel. If it does not then it’s not optimum.
That does not mean that the gun won’t work but it’s just not the optimum angle to the hand.
His reasoning was and I found it to be true, you can point your finger at a point within 10 yards reasonably accurately. Both center and height. This is not looking down your finger but with your hand at your waist.
We did a simple experiment. From the hip at 7 yards without any practice slowly bring up the gun at your side and fire with the gun at hip height. You can’t look at the gun only the target.
You have to do this in a very safe location. Outside with a very large back stop which we had.
Try this with several different guns and you only get one try for each and you have to be honest with yourself.
The only practice you get is without the gun and only your index finger.
His reasoning for this was that in a fire fight you will rely on your natural instincts. You may not be able to use the sights. You can train to overcome a gun that does not naturally point when it’s in your hand but the important thing is to train with what you carry how you carry.
Spending all day at an indoor range and taking sighted shots only makes you good at target practice. That doesn’t make it a bad thing. But it’s not real world if you’re training for self defense.
And if you can’t hit a target at 7 yards without using the sights you need more training.
So is “Is grip angle a problem or more of an inconvience?”
Find out by doing the above test and test yourself. I have seen people that shoot a lot and carry every day try this and the first time they did it the bullet went over the targets head by about 3 feet.
Please don’t think that I am suggesting that hip shooting is the correct way to win a fight. This is simply a training exercise that will teach you your capabilities of naturally pointing the gun you carry.
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Mleake,
When Springfield started its campaign as having the cure for Glocks problem this issue was unheard of. Glock was outselling other makers and making hugh strides even on those "tactical tupperware" hold outs. For years now I have been told that the grip angle on the Glock is wrong its a problem. They would say that the 1911 and guns of similar grip angle are the more natural or correct ones. This caused me to wonder if grip angle was such a problem then how on earth did I shoot the 1911 and the Glock with ease (including point shooting)? How could millions of others do the same? I realized that we must automatically adjust to the difference. Now I'm left wondering why the issue is called a problem? Bingo, if it is indeed a problem then a cure for this problem is needed. A gun just like Glock only without the problem AKA the XD.
A gun that failed as the HS2000 ironically took off after it became the cure.
When Springfield started its campaign as having the cure for Glocks problem this issue was unheard of. Glock was outselling other makers and making hugh strides even on those "tactical tupperware" hold outs. For years now I have been told that the grip angle on the Glock is wrong its a problem. They would say that the 1911 and guns of similar grip angle are the more natural or correct ones. This caused me to wonder if grip angle was such a problem then how on earth did I shoot the 1911 and the Glock with ease (including point shooting)? How could millions of others do the same? I realized that we must automatically adjust to the difference. Now I'm left wondering why the issue is called a problem? Bingo, if it is indeed a problem then a cure for this problem is needed. A gun just like Glock only without the problem AKA the XD.
A gun that failed as the HS2000 ironically took off after it became the cure.
Microgunner
New member
threegun said:
This is indeed the truth and SA absolutly did promote the XD as the cure for for the "Block" as Springfield Armory called the Glock in their ads.
But you must admit, Glock left the opening for SA to step through. You can't blame SA for taking advantage of such a blatant opportunity.
Xd points well, balances well, feels good in hand, all the things glock doesnt do. Add in more color options, bettersights, better trigger and a custom shop that will tune the trigger without voiding warranty, now there you got your polymer striker gun. Sorry glock, XD got you beat. BTW, I dont find SAA clones to point all that naturally. Dont know why, I guess they're okay, but, there not this natural ergonomic wonder they are hyped to be.
The first part is all subjective.
The second part is just for those who feel the need for crutches to try and correct for personal deficiencies. Regardless who makes it, and barring the inevitable dog, its rarely the guns fault if you cant shoot it.
Box stock Glocks work fine for me. I'll bet a box stock XD would too, but with my past history with Springfield, the gun would probably sense high levels of "distrust", and just fall apart in my hands.
Most of the others (the last 6 or so anyway) just never seemed to work right, maily because they were "trying" to be like an original, only better. They should have left well enough alone.
No arguement here. I just don't blame it on the stubborn old man at Glock like you do. If Glock was satisfied with their maket share so be it. They will and are suffering as a result. Free market at work.
I don't blame Springfield at all. I wish I had the foresight to do the same.
My Glocks point well, balance well, feel good in my hand, all the things XD does also LOL.
Color options......who cares, better sights........the Glocks work fine, better trigger........subjective, I can tune my own Glock in my house so no need for a customshop.
The things that kinda count a bit more like bore axis, slide height, trigger reset, etc. are better on the Glock.
Plus I didn't see a Glock jam on Guns and ammo tv.
JCS and 9mm
I was in the military for 20 yrs as an officer. During that time the 45 was retired and the 9mm adopted. Two reasons for the change. The 45s were wearing out (from too much cleaning, assembly, disassembly according to the armorers I knew). New 45s could be bought so that was a secondary reason.
The main reason was to standardize ammo with NATO. This is similar to the adoption of the .308 NATO reasoning even though it is slightly less powerful than the 30-06.
You have to remember that the JCS are politicians, not necessarily the best warriors. In fact, it is rare for a good warrior to achieve high rank. Look at Robin OLds who was promoted to BG only because the politicians succumbed to popular pressure.. He was a warriors warrior. The brass didn't like him.
I was in the military for 20 yrs as an officer. During that time the 45 was retired and the 9mm adopted. Two reasons for the change. The 45s were wearing out (from too much cleaning, assembly, disassembly according to the armorers I knew). New 45s could be bought so that was a secondary reason.
The main reason was to standardize ammo with NATO. This is similar to the adoption of the .308 NATO reasoning even though it is slightly less powerful than the 30-06.
You have to remember that the JCS are politicians, not necessarily the best warriors. In fact, it is rare for a good warrior to achieve high rank. Look at Robin OLds who was promoted to BG only because the politicians succumbed to popular pressure.. He was a warriors warrior. The brass didn't like him.
redstategunnut
New member
In my opinion, guns are like shoes: some brands fit some people better. In the case of guns, grip angle is one reason for a better fit. However, if you cannot shoot a gun accurately and you blame it on grip angle, in my opinion you are making an invalid excuse. I can't dunk, but it is not because of the shoes. Any competent shooter should be able to accurately shoot any handgun regardless of "grip angle." You may prefer one to another, but you should be able to shoot any of them.
After reading this entire thread, I believe this clearly states the OP's position. It is my contention that this premise is flawed.
There are approximately 700,000 people who live in Alaska. I contend most of the rest of the 300,000,000+ Americans could adapt to living in Alaska. Many people have lived in Alaska to find that while they can adapt they do not choose to. Others have homes there that are used occasionally, yet prefer to live elsewhere. Some of us have visited and find it to be a fine place to visit, but would not even consider living there. Is living in Alaska a problem?
I haven't done the count but there are many in this thread alone that agree with me and a few of those don't drink Glock Koolaid.
Thats another thread all together "why glock users are called Fanboys and Koolaid drinkers"?
All of the actual hard data supports my view. Even some of you guys opposed to my view agree somewhat. Still I'm a koolaid drinker and you guys are of course right LOL.