GRIP ANGLE real problem or individual choice?

mathematical solutions, angles, and comfort

Interesting choice of words. Guns aren't mathematical problems, no...

But ballistics involve a mix of calculus and, if the target or shooter are moving relative to each other, some differential equations.

Good thing our brains can subconsciously work those problems, whether we've had the academic classes or not; otherwise, for instance, we'd never catch a fly ball.

Back to grip angles, though: Threegun, you never did answer my questions about motorcycles, airplanes, and cars. I don't know about you, but I personally find I perform better / more naturally with certain types over others.

I prefer drag or slightly raked drag bars and more upright controls on a motorcycle (which is ironic, as I had forward controls on my Harley - but if I ever buy another one, it won't have those). Obviously, I could adapt to forward controls, but they did make low-speed maneuvering tougher.

I also prefer more upright seated positions in cars and trucks; I did not buy a Mustang 5.0, back in the day, because due to my seated height (Nordic side's torso over Sicilian side's legs...), I had to recline the seat too far in order to see under the top edge of the windshield frame. Could I have handled the car in town or in the curves? Sure, but I wouldn't have wanted to do so for very long, and I'm a road trip kind of guy.

As far as planes go, I really like center-sticks best. I have most of my hours in planes with yokes (a few thousand hours in planes from 9,000 to 135,000lbs); I have something over 300 hours in side-stick jets; I have around 1,000 hours with the Embraer type yoke (which is an odd sub-set of yoke). Obviously, I can use and adapt to any of the normal control types.

But, if I had a budget in the $60k-100k range, and were buying one for my own personal toy, you can bet it would have a center-stick. I like them better, and am more comfortable executing more aggressive maneuvers with them. (All my aerobatic time was in center-stick aircraft.)

Preferences often involve comfort. Whether driving, flying, boating, or shooting, I think you'll find that comfort almost always enhances performance. Really, the only time comfort is a negative is when it becomes complacency.
 
Meh. It's just like shoes or clothing. What fits you perfectly out of the box probably won't fit me and isn't my style anyways. I can only adjust my body so much to fit into new clothes, and there's not a whole lot I can do to adjust my feet to a new shoe size.

And quite frankly, it seems rather silly to go through all that effort for limited results and a solution I'm not completely happy with when I can just buy shoes and clothing that fit me well (and better reflect my personal style) in the first place.

This whole thread is ridiculous. Imagine if Glocks were shoes.

Glocknick: "Shoe size is a myth! Why doesn't everyone love these size 15 combat boots?"

Me: "Actually, I prefer a running shoe in a smaller size. I like New Balance."

Glocknick: "IT SAYS PERFECTION ON THE BOX. WHAT PART OF PERFECTION DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?!?!?!?"

Me: "That's just a slogan. I have size 8 feet."

Glocknick: "Look! They fit my size 15 feet perfectly! Try this pair on! That's just wiggle room. A real man could adjust and train himself to get used to this size."

Me: "No, it really doesn't fit and it's rather uncomfortable."

Glocknick: "Pff. You just hate the synthetic construction. Leather dress shoes are obsolete. Militaries all over the world issue these boots. How do their troops adapt? Shoe size is an imaginary problem, and furthermore, you're just a boot basher, Grandpa."

Me: :confused:
 
Threegun my handgun collection at this time is very extensive. I currently own a Ruger SR9c and an GP100 in .357. I shoot these and my Father-in-law's military issue Colt 1911 every chance I get.

I shot a Glock compact in 9mm and a full size in .45 before buying the SR9c. I like the Glock price and reputation. I just confirmed what I already knew; Glocks do not feel right in my hand. The S&W MP pistol worked well for me, but based on price, fit, and versatility I chose the Ruger.
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I wasn't asking to challenge your credentials. I do find it odd that you can use the SR9 and gp-100 (different angles) without a problem.
 
Not at all odd. They are within my comfort zone. The Glocks are not. I have tried to the best of my ability to make my case. I now will withdraw from the field. Peace.
 
A neutral wrist angle helps prevent developing carpal tunnel syndrome. If you don't mind having that problem keep shooting with your wrist flexed downward at an unatural angle. It's nobody's problem but your own.
 
K_Mac said:
Glocks do not feel right in my hand.
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Not trying to fan flames, but I still don't get it. I go to the range with my Glock, XD, 1911, and Ruger P90, and I just don't feel any difference in grip angle.....and I often switch between guns several times during the day.

I don't doubt others that find a difference in grip angle, but it's just not there for me.

It's just one of those mysteries I don't understand, but that just adds to my long list of things I don't understand.:)
 
If you track the front sight as the gun comes up, it really makes no difference, and you probably wont even notice one.

Usually though, if youre used to guns like the 1911, a SIG, High Power, etc, and switch to a Glock or something else with a different grip angle than what youre accustomed to, when you naturally point the gun, there will be a slight difference in where the gun points and where the round hits when fired that way.

Switch and use the guns for a short while, and youll see the same thing but in reverse, until you do it again.

Some here seem to think its a big deal, some dont. Some just want to argue. :)
 
A gun is not a mathematical statement which "requires a solution".
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actually the question at hand is most certainly a mathmatical one.
A 1911 grip is ~103 degrees if you switch guns but stay close to this they will point similar at least on a vertical plane.
Glocks grip is close to 109 degrees for a difference of about 6 degrees.
6 degrees would be 360 minutes of angle which equals just over 3 feet at 10 yards. missing a target by 3 feet can certainly be a problem as can taking the extra time to aim 3 feet lower or higher than your used to.
Now I actually own and shoot guns that have far more extreme differences than that my old Ruger MkI target still wears factory grips and has a 110 degree grip angle while my Uberti Bisley clone is under 90 and I have no problem using them for the intended use. Guess what it's not defense.
 
While I don't think it's as dire as many make it out to be, grip angle is an issue. The issue really isn't a new one, it just hasn't always been called "grip angle". I've read articles dating back to at least the 1960's in which the "pointability" of one gun or another (usually either a 1911 or Colt SAA) is extolled. "Pointability" and "grip angle" are really the same thing as it is the angle of the grip that determine the pointing characteristics of a handgun.

As to whether or not it is an issue, consider the following: my first handgun was a CZ-52. The grip angle of that particular gun is much more vertical than most (it is nearly perpendicular to the bore axis). While I can shoot the gun fine, it is not nearly as comfortable and not nearly as easy to do as with most of the handguns that I've bought afterward.

Familiarity doesn't really have much to do with it as the second handgun I bought, a Walther PP, felt better in my hand and was easier to shoot accurately from the get-go even though I was less familiar with it.

My test for grip angle is as follows: with an unloaded gun, pick out an object in a safe direction. Close your eyes and point the gun at the object. Now, open your eyes and see if the sights are aligned. If the sight are pretty close to vertical alignment, you have a gun with a good grip angle for you but if the front sight is significantly higher or lower than the rear sight then the grip angle of the gun is not optimum for your hand.

Oddly enough, both Glocks and 1911's seem to point reasonably well for me. My problem with a Glock's grip has nothing to do with the angle and everything to do with the shape. A Glock's grip is too wide and too square to be comfortable in my hand and the trigger guard gives me "Glock knuckle". I wonder how many people instantly cry "grip angle" when in fact it is the grip shape that isn't right for them.
 
Grip angle is a simple idea,...

you either like it or not.

I shoot the 1911's, BHP & M39-2.

I find no difference between the 1911 & BHP, I have removed the arched mainspring housing in favor of the original flat style to insure I have the grip safety operating.

The M39-2, just is a natural to my hand and a joy to fire. It's my preferred CPL.

My only .22 is a four digit Woodsman that grip angle isn't a concern.
 
A neutral wrist angle helps prevent developing carpal tunnel syndrome. If you don't mind having that problem keep shooting with your wrist flexed downward at an unatural angle. It's nobody's problem but your own.
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The glocks angle forces most to relax or lower the wrist but only so slightly. You really aren't flexing down but rather holding the guns weight. If anything the 1911 grip angle forces higher muscle tension to keep the gun level.
 
It's just one of those mysteries I don't understand, but that just adds to my long list of things I don't understand.
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I believe I understand this mystery it involves folks confusing fit with grip angle.

I just played with the guns we have for sale here at work and the difference in angles causes the very slightest of adjustments as to almost be visually impossible to tell. I had to draw a line from my wrist through my palm to see the difference in my wrist position.

Or perhaps the tens of millions of us who have carried platforms of differing grip angles have universal hands LOL.
 
actually the question at hand is most certainly a mathmatical one.
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Not mathematical as it relates to the definition of Problem.

A 1911 grip is ~103 degrees if you switch guns but stay close to this they will point similar at least on a vertical plane.
Glocks grip is close to 109 degrees for a difference of about 6 degrees.
6 degrees would be 360 minutes of angle which equals just over 3 feet at 10 yards. missing a target by 3 feet can certainly be a problem as can taking the extra time to aim 3 feet lower or higher than your used to.
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However at the muzzle its still a very tiny adjustment.

my old Ruger MkI target still wears factory grips and has a 110 degree grip angle while my Uberti Bisley clone is under 90 and I have no problem using them for the intended use
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Key words NO PROBLEM. Seems we might agree after all the dust settles and smoke clears.
 
My test for grip angle is as follows: with an unloaded gun, pick out an object in a safe direction. Close your eyes and point the gun at the object. Now, open your eyes and see if the sights are aligned. If the sight are pretty close to vertical alignment, you have a gun with a good grip angle for you but if the front sight is significantly higher or lower than the rear sight then the grip angle of the gun is not optimum for your hand.
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Running this test after a small amount of time using anything will yield good results.

Although this test is great if you need a gun perfect out of the box.

Oddly enough, both Glocks and 1911's seem to point reasonably well for me.
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This isn't possible according to the nae sayers. Another mystery perhaps ;)LOL
 
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However at the muzzle its still a very tiny adjustment.
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assuming a 6" sight radius it's .6" over twice the hight of most defensive guns front sight.
Key words NO PROBLEM. Seems we might agree after all the dust settles and smoke clears.
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We sure do, shooting a Glock is no problem as long as your intended purpose is not defense.
 
We sure do, shooting a Glock is no problem as long as your intended purpose is not defense.
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All depends on who's holding the Glock :)

Give me an hour or two with the SIG or 1911, and they wont be far behind. ;)
 
Really, now it actually take a special skillset just to shoot a Glock in a non defensive situation.
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No. Only if you want to make that the case.

If you dont get by now, we might as well move on, the woods were dense enough as it was, now were just into the green briar's. :)
 
Really, now it actually take a special skillset just to shoot a Glock in a non defensive situation.
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Part of the problem with this discussion is that it seems that there are people who don't believe that anyone's hands can be different from theirs.

One of the reasons I finally accepted Glocks (the idea of plastic guns with sproingy triggers was not at all attractive when I first looked them over) was because they pointed very naturally for me. I've run into several other guns that point well for me over the years, but the 1911 isn't one of them.

Another part of the problem with this discussion is that the range of grip angles with popular guns is fairly small which means that most people can adapt to any common grip angle with some practice since it doesn't require a huge adjustment. There seem to be a good number of folks who believe that the grip angle they've adapted to through extensive practice is actually what is natural for them.

The evidence for the latter is how the concept of what is a "naturally pointing grip angle" changed when the 1911 became popular in the shooting community. Prior to Cooper's crusade, the 1911 was commonly denigrated as a poor pointer while guns with much more raked grip angles were called natural pointers.

After the 1911 took off in the commercial/civilian market you gradually stopped seeing that kind of comment in writing. As the 1911 grew in popularity it started to be common for shooters who were used to the 1911 to begin grading all other guns by the grip angle they were used to.

Read some of Elmer Keith's comments about natural pointing handguns if you want to see how much things have changed.
 
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