357 Ring Of Fire Update

[74A95]

I recall hearing 38 super folks discussing the life of their brass being only 2-3 loadings, while others only used the brass once...is this common?

No. 38 super brass will last a long time, even loaded at it's maximum limit or beyond. Brass like Starline 38 Super Comp is very durable and can be loaded many, many times at very high pressure before primer pockets start to get loose. It depends on the pressure.

The load that tends to limit brass life is 9 Major, which can run at really high pressure (depending on their OAL) because of commonly used powders like AutoComp and HS-6. Those shooters tend to limit the number of times they reload the cases. Others 9 Major users have said, however, that they use their brass quite a few times.

I've asked for help before, but replies were all over the place...is there anyone seriously interested? Do you have Quick Load?

Keep in mind that QuickLoad estimates pressures, and the estimates can be quite far off when compared to actual pressure test data. Keep that in mind if you use it.

I've looked in to a contender barrel in 9mm which I could adapt to this Ring Of Fire...for making a pressure barrel. It'll come with time.

I think H.P. White labs can do pressure tests. Check with them. If you have a proprietary cartridge you might need to supply a reamer/barrel, but it would be worth asking. http://www.hpwhite.com/ballistic-testing/ammunition/

 

[stagpanther]

I really admire your adventuresome spirit Dave--but you really owe it to yourself and others you have engaged in this thread to step up to plate and do some kind of pressure testing along with velocity/energy yields as suggested above--sending them to a lab would be a great idea.

 

[Davelliott]

Stag, 74A95

Thanks guys,
I'll look in to it at first chance.
Dave

 

[Davelliott]

All

I've submitted an inquiry to HP White for more information.
Let's see how it goes.
Dave

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I recall hearing 38 super folks discussing the life of their brass being only 2-3 loadings, while others only used the brass once...is this common?

Absolutely not.

The top competitor at my range shoots a .38 Super. He picks up his brass after every stage, and reloads the same brass week after week after week.

 

[45_auto]

And using those "physics" examples, there is no way a 460 or 960 could possibly exist.

You continually demonstrate a VERY weak grasp of firearm physics. The performance of the 460 Rowland is totally dependent on the physics of essentially DOUBLING standard 45 ACP pressure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.460_Rowland

There are two key elements to the .460 Rowland concept. The first is a sharp increase in cartridge maximum pressure over the .45 ACP and .45 Super. Maximum Average Pressure is: 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (28,000 PSI), .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI). The second is to damp or reduce the velocity of the slide in converted autoloading pistols to manageable levels. The first delivers magnum level performance and the second allows the cartridge to be easily and reliably fired from compact, light weight, high capacity, autoloading pistols.

The 960 Rowland also uses the physics of higher pressure to improve on 9mm +P performance by increasing the pressure about 20%:

http://www.firearmsnews.com/ammo/960-rowland-review/

Rowland says cartridge pressures are in the 40,000-45,000 psi range. This compares to the 9mm +P which has a maximum SAAMI pressure limit of 38,500 psi.

Rowland claims the .960 will propel a 115 grain bullet at 1550 feet per second (over 1600 fps from a 6” barrel). They also offer a 124 grain round at 1475 fps, and 147 grain bullet, though its velocity is not advertised. However, those velocities are from a longer barrel than is offered with their Glock 19 barrels, which are just over four inches. Factory ballistics from 115, 124 and 147 grain bullets from a 4.25” barrel are 1435 fps, 1246 fps, and 1050 fps,* respectively.

Preliminary tests have breached 1500 fps with 125 gr., and 1385 fps with 147 gr.

You're claiming a 30% increase over 960 Rowland performance. Whether you like the physics or not, there is only one practical way to do that - just like Dave Rowland did it - and that is by substantially increasing the pressure.

A complete "PressureTrace II" setup would cost less than $1,000 and provide at least a minumum feedback as to how far you are exceeding the Glock's base design parameters:

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

I've already contacted Glock and told them what I'm doing.

From your previous thread, post #251:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=566062&page=11

Unlike the jerks you seem to be associating with, I am an honest man.
I have already sent the folks at Glock the link to my youtube videos.
They also thought I was one of those folks you seem to be familiar with

You're the one that admitted that Glock thinks you're a jerk. Why do you think that the folks at Glock would think that?

Could it be because anyone stupid enough to try designing a high-pressure specialty cartridge without any idea of the pressure they're running at deserves what they get, and Glock is smart enough to totally disassociate themselves from such a jerk?

 

[reddog81]

I was driveing to the range today and thinking about this thread and wondering what is patentable about a carteridge. All you have is a brass case, bullet, chamber and a pressure level. If you're using an already existing carteridge as the parent and using existing bullets and don't know the pressure what is there to patent? I could see a trademark on the name and I honestly don't know anything about patents but I just can't see what here is to protect.

 

[74A95]

45_auto, a couple of notes . . .

1. it's Johnny Rowland, not dave rowland. you might not care, but Mr. Rowland does.

2. the 960 Rowland is a 9mm luger length cartridge. The OP's cartridge is likely a 38 super length cartridge. Given that a 38 super can produce velocities just a little below the OP's goals, pressure will probably not be out of this world if he is careful about component selection. this remains to be determined.

 

[cougar gt-e]

I've submitted an inquiry to HP White for more information.
Let's see how it goes.
Dave

I'm happy to hear that, as I assume many others here will be too. It would be horrible if you or one of your testers were injured. Good luck with that.

I was driveing to the range today and thinking about this thread and wondering what is patentable about a carteridge. All you have is a brass case, bullet, chamber and a pressure level. If you're using an already existing carteridge as the parent and using existing bullets and don't know the pressure what is there to patent? I could see a trademark on the name and I honestly don't know anything about patents but I just can't see what here is to protect.

If it was obvious before disclosure, it wouldn't be patentable! Lol.
But, I also don't know what but it could be... some method of extraction or rim design or a lock up method to minimize battering? But for every good original idea, there are 1000 that are in some way not unique enough. Maybe it's a new case that can take 100,000psi? Who knows?

 

[reddog81]

I know there are tons of firearm patents and a few ammo patents, but I believe he is making the brass from existing cases. Taking an existing case and trimming it back can't be patentable. At least I would be very surprised if it was.

In all the ring of Fire threads I haven't ever heard a mention of the action, extraction, or lock up being anything different so I'm guessing those are all stock.

 

[stagpanther]

I know there are tons of firearm patents and a few ammo patents, but I believe he is making the brass from existing cases. Taking an existing case and trimming it back can't be patentable. At least I would be very surprised if it was.

In all the ring of Fire threads I haven't ever heard a mention of the action, extraction, or lock up being anything different so I'm guessing those are all stock.

I thought Bill Alexander locked up the Grendel for a few years with a patent--and that was derived from the 7.62 x 39 I believe.

 

[JohnKSa]

I searched the USPTO database for issued and filed patents finding 207 items from "David Elliot" none of which relate to firearms, ammo or similar.

Try it with two "t"s.

Taking an existing case and trimming it back can't be patentable. At least I would be very surprised if it was.

If no one else has patented the case in the configuration you're using it, I would think that would be patentable even if the case is derived from one that's currently existing.

If the cartridge has been patented then that should alleviate any concerns about providing information about it since that information would be protected and no one else could legally profit from it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Maybe a design patent on how the cartridge LOOKS.

 

[Davelliott]

QL Data

Hi guys,
I had a friend do some Quickload Data for me.
Here ya go:
200 LRN 5.5 gr. Blue Dot = 41,930 psi @ 915 fps. I will verify velocity soon.
158 gr. Deep Curl 8.5 gr. Blue Dot @ 32,745 psi.
9.0 gr. Blue Dot @ 38,494 psi. Will test velocities and maybe charge to 9.2 max.
158 XTP 8.5 gr. Blue Dot @ 40,698 psi. at an average of 1251 fps.
Nosler 158 JHP 8.4 gr. Blue Dot @ 41,815 psi. To be tested for velocity soon.
Rainier 158 Copper Plated Round Nose 8.5 gr. Blue Dot @ 40,110 psi at 1249 fps. avg. of 10 rounds.
Magnus 125 JHP 10.8 gr. Blue Dot @ 41,910 psi. at 1499 fps. average 5 rounds.
Nosler 125 JHP 10.8 gr. Blue Dot @ 40,142 psi. Not yet tested...Nosler doesn't make these anymore, but I have them, and they're less expensive than buying current manufacture.

140 XTP
9.9 gr. AA#9 @ 30,659...to be tested up to 10.5 gr.
3N38 9.0 gr. @ 37,085 psi. 9.8 gr. is too high pressure, will test to 9.5 max for velocity.
Longshot 6.1 gr. @ 23,604 at 1115 fps average...too light to cycle slide.
7.0 gr. @ 32,172 psi at 1265 fps average for 5 rounds...will test to 7.5 gr. for velocities.
Blue Dot 8.8 gr. @30,407 psi. Not tested yet, but I would like to load up to @41000 psi.
N110 12.0 gr. @41,306 psi. Don't have this powder to test yet.
HS6 8.0 gr. @40,719 psi. Don't have this powder either...but looks promising.

147 JHP
Magnus Bullet 3N38 9.0 gr. @ 40,478 psi at 1354 fps. average 5 rounds.
XTP 3N38 8.5 gr. @40,166 psi...to be tested.

So overall, I will use the shortest bullet for weight to keep pressures down.
There is room for increases in some rounds, but overall, I've hit the original goals set at concept.
I've written bullet manufacturers for nominal lengths of their .357 bullets, and have some replies to date, to work future tests.
I was very pleased with the Speer Deep Curls! Very short for weight! I have been favoring XTP's mostly due to availability, but Speer has moved to the front for the 158 grainers for now. I still haven't heard from the big three...Remington, Winchester or Federal.
If anyone has some of these and would send the measurements, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks guys,
Dave

 

[stagpanther]

what is the internal grain volume capacity of your case design (that's not giving away any area 51 secret)? I looked at an equivalent 147 gr load in 9 x 25 using your powder choice but at that kind of pressure would get well over 1400 fps and just under 700 ftlbs of energy (actually, I run an 8" barrel and get much better than that). That sends up a red flag in mind compared to what you're getting for a 147 bullet. As others have observed--my impression is you're running your pressures up in a small capacity case design with a big bullet. I'm no expert though--just a guess.

 

[Davelliott]

Stagpanther

Use the 9mm Winchester Magnum case with an overall length of 1.288. This length works reliably in all my Glock mags. 1.290 seems to stick sometimes.

 

[stagpanther]

I know the glock base 10mm's where designed with cartridges of COL 1.260 in mind. I've had some experience pushing the COL past that in glock mags--will cause hang-ups, jams etc eventually, at least that's been my experience.

 

[Davelliott]

Stagpanther

Yes, I saw that too...but with these smaller diameter cartridges, it seems more length is needed. When loaded near 1.280 or less, they seem to not feed reliably and jam.

 

[stagpanther]

Aha--using your numbers and base case it seems that you are dealing with usable case capacity of maybe 10 grs +/-. That seems pretty small to be pushing loads that generate those kinds of high pressures

 

[Davelliott]

Stagpanther

Oh, yes, the 147 gr. by my math should've breached 1400, but didn't...and one figure showed nearly 1500 fps...but I won't push the issue without additional data or real pressure tests.