357 Ring Of Fire Update

Oysterboy

Well...if you read back a few posts, you'll see where quickload estimates are below the operating pressures of safety for this cartridge...you'll also discover with research, this cartridge is similar in pressures to the 10mm.
Thank you,
Dave
 
Well...if you read back a few posts, you'll see where quickload estimates are below the operating pressures of safety for this cartridge...you'll also discover with research, this cartridge is similar in pressures to the 10mm.
AND THE VELOCITY NUMBERS ARE WELL BELOW YOUR EARLIER CLAIMS
and right in line what is capable with either hot loaded Super in a supported barrel or a 9X23 Winchester.
 
What he said Dave, back where you started. You backed off on your hot loads because you were exceeding safe pressure levels.
 
Oysterboy
Well...if you read back a few posts, you'll see where quickload estimates are below the operating pressures of safety for this cartridge...you'll also discover with research, this cartridge is similar in pressures to the 10mm.
Thank you,
Dave

40k plus is safe by who's standards? Oh and SAAMI spec for 10mm is 37.5k
 
All

Who's using a Glock in 9X23?
I'm curious about pistol life, and any other input you can share on it's use.
Thank you,
Dave
 
Dave--just as word of advice, not a personal attack--I've been using QL for a few years and it is only a tool that can give you estimates of powders and bullets (rather limited selection of bullets, I might add) and the program itself tells you that it may be off--and I've found that to be the case on a number of occasions. If you are inputting a new case design that would add to the uncertainty in my mind.
 
If you are inputting a new case design that would add to the uncertainty in my mind.

I agree with this and furthermore I've told in the past that it is less reliable still with straight-walled cases. Something to do with not having shoulders to contain the burn, IIRR.

So: QL is a good program and I'd like to get it some day, but it is not infallible and it is not hard data from a lab.
 
Well...if you read back a few posts, you'll see where quickload estimates are below the operating pressures of safety for this cartridge...you'll also discover with research, this cartridge is similar in pressures to the 10mm.
Thank you,
Dave

To expand on Stag's and Pond's points, Quick Load also begins to break down at higher pressures, compressed loads, sharp shoulders, small case volumes, and large case volumes. Basically, any time you push any variable toward its limit. Which anyone familiar with numerical interpolation/extrapolation models would expect with a predictive program like this. Quick Load is essentially a big compendium of lots of load data, and merely estimates results for your input based on that source material.

So if your Ring of Fingers round is very similar to 9x23 Winchester, for instance, you could reliably expect accurate predictions for a load within 9x23's range. But if the round is truly unique compared to the data in Quick Load, high order non-linear effects will rapidly degrade the quality of the prediction. I understand that the program is almost, but not entirely useless for 5.7x28 loadings, simply because there is so little data in that part of the numbers map (not surprising, since it is a fairly unique round operating at several extremes, with only a handful of published/tested loads offered)

My next point pertains to the above in bold; No, Dave, you do not know what pressures this round is operating at. At best you can guess, since you have not measured anything that can determine peak pressure at this time (muzzle velocity cannot do this, not unless you have a ton of pressure-tested load data to refer back to; it is a one-way correlation). So if you are convinced this round is truly doing something above and beyond its closest competition (9x23) --even if only a little bit since that round kind of operates on the edge already-- it behooves you to do the *real* scientific measurement that can give you *real* design guidance, so you won't have to fumble in the dark up against hard, uncaring, and abrupt limitations of metallurgy.

FWIW, measuring your muzzle velocity from different barrel lengths and powder charges can probably yield a decent extrapolation of peak pressure, especially if you have a similar round to compare to with its own test data. Failing that, a Thompson Contender and ported barrel with pressure guages is the only way to know what you are doing.

But hey, that's why they're called "wild cats" --the designers *don't* know what they're doing, so the whole thinng carries the same type of risk as home distilling (blindness), but the rest of the world may eventually accept the idea after enough years of people not hurting themselves repeating your experiments (another important component of real, hard science)

TCB
 
My next point pertains to the above in bold; No, Dave, you do not know what pressures this round is operating at. At best you can guess, since you have not measured anything that can determine peak pressure at this time (muzzle velocity cannot do this, not unless you have a ton of pressure-tested load data to refer back to; it is a one-way correlation). So if you are convinced this round is truly doing something above and beyond its closest competition (9x23) --even if only a little bit since that round kind of operates on the edge already-- it behooves you to do the *real* scientific measurement that can give you *real* design guidance, so you won't have to fumble in the dark up against hard, uncaring, and abrupt limitations of metallurgy.

I think this is the crux of the issue and I do believe, whilst Barnbwt has phrase more diplomatically than some other posters, the underlying motive for telling you this is not wanting to read about a fellow shooter maiming themselves when it could have been avoidable.

For all you know, the like a shooter who does recognise the sound of a squib load, that last test round you fired in the Glock may have fatigued the metal to a degree that the next time you try out a ROF load.....

Surely, you get the picture.
 
For all you know, the like a shooter who does recognise the sound of a squib load
Hey, I resemble that remark! Are you referring to the time I fired my glock and had a squib that I thought I heard go off with a "regular" report?:o
 
All

Thanks guys for the info.
Yes, I fully understand the weak points of quickload...but it's more than I had before.
It doesn't tell me full speed ahead, but let's me know a little more about what's going on.
Yes my original math hinted at possibilities of higher velocities, but the math didn't jibe with logic...so I began testing.
It is likely this round will only meet midrange 357 magnum performance as a viable loading...so the forte' for this cartridge will keep the original intent of firing heavier bullets remarkably well...like 140 to 200 grains...
Pressure testing will be done when I can afford the 1750 needed.
Thank you,
Dave
 
Pressure testing will be done when I can afford the 1750 needed.

How much are mdical fees in the US, again?

Honestly, I think your priorities are somewhat misplaced.
You've got some loads. You seem to have come to the conclusion that you may have beenmpushing the envelope and so don't tempt fate:
Just stop, save up and get them tested.

My 2 monetary units.
 
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Pressure testing will be done when I can afford the 1750 needed.
Thank you,
Dave

I'm encouraged that you've already determined the cost. That tells me you're serious about the project AND the heath / safety of your test shooters. The injury from a "kaboom" can be serious and we want you to be safe! Let us know how the test turns out. :)
 
I'm only going to wish you luck Dave as I just learned what they mean by wild cats.

If you think your ROF is marketable then more power to you (pardon the pun).

They already made a powerful semi-auto 9mm caliber by using the 10mm casing.
 
All

Thanks guys!
Yes I'm seriously checking things out. I am not hell bent on selling thousands of these, just trying to offer something to others which I have wanted for decades now.
Yes, it must be safe!
Yes it must offer something not currently available.
I'd offer these to the folks who would also like something like this.
It seems possible to reach the realistic goals set forth by an engineer I spoke with at Hodgdon Powders a couple of years ago, and I'm fine with that. We decided back then that this cartridge would likely achieve midrange 357 velocities, comparable to standard manufacturer's loadings and that's fair.
Our beloved revolvers would still rule the roost with higher performances for hunting, and this cartridge would offer better performance than the nines if desired.
Still moving forward.
Dave
 
Mav

158, 170 and 200 grain bullets...unless those others also fire them...but I haven't seen any data for it.
And velocities for 158? At substantially lower pressures than 9X23?
What's your real beef about?
 
James

The same way some claim high pressures with the exception that I have all the facts, and they only have supposition at best or ulterior motive at worst.
Either way, I'm not wasting more time on replying to hyperbole and supposition.
Testing will continue to proof theories and math. Results will be factual with no preconceived agenda.
Thank you,
Dave

Genuine Reply
 
158, 170 and 200 grain bullets...unless those others also fire them...but I haven't seen any data for it.
And velocities for 158? At substantially lower pressures than 9X23?
Here's a link with some basic information on what affects cartridge performance.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/intballi.htm

What Affects What

Among the things that affect the internal performance (pressure and velocity) of a given cartridge & bullet are:

  • Capacity of the powder chamber (a function of chamber size and shape, case construction, and bullet seating depth)
  • Relative burning rate and burning characteristics of the propellant powder used
  • Amount of propellant used and how much it fills the powder chamber (load density)
  • Diameter, weight, and the bearing area of the projectile
  • Length and interior dimensions of the barrel
  • Uniformity and speed of ignition of the propellant powder (Primer and loading density related)
  • Temperature of the propellant prior to ignition
  • Barrel freebore
  • Neck tension
Note that with the exception of the boldface item, all of the other items won't vary to any significant extent between the 9x23 and the ROF.

I suppose one could make the argument that barrel freebore could vary between the two, but that's not really a cartridge difference as much as it is a barrel/chamber difference. Also, to the extent that one cartridge could enhance its performance by being shot in a barrel with a lot of freebore, the other could do the same in a similar barrel setup. Bottom line, freebore is not a cartridge characteristic which means that effective case capacity is the operative variable.

Given that the two cases have essentially identical diameters and are limited by magazine dimensions to the same overall length, they also have very similar effective case capacities. By effective case capacity, I mean the space remaining for powder with a bullet seated to the COAL dictated by the magazine dimensions--"powder chamber capacity" in the terms of the information in the provided link.

As a result, at similar pressures the two will provide very similar performance. If one significantly outperforms the other it can only be because it operates at significantly higher pressure. Given that the 9x23 case is rated for much higher pressure than the ROF parent case, it is not possible for the ROF to outperform the true capabilities* of the 9x23 in any bullet weight at safe pressures.

*"True capabilities" means what the 9x23 can do when loaded to its full performance levels as opposed to lighter or midrange loads.
 
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