357 Ring Of Fire Update

Stagpanther

Yes sir, that's the neighborhood I'm looking at...sometimes with compressed loads...but Blue Dot has been a good performer with these limits, as are AA#7&9. Longshot is a nice surprise too...but BE 86 was so disappointing. Even the max charge I came up with would barely cycle the slide, and I am not going to just keep dumping more powder in there...
Oh! 3N38? Seems to be a great powder for these so far...just need more load data for the different bullets...makes me curious about how 3N37 may work...
 
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TMD

What base cartridge did you use?
What bullet length?
What bore?
What COAL?
Wrong input to any of these will give you wrong output.
 
None of the above. I called Blue Dot for powder and excessive pressure in post #17 as my guess for what youre using to reach the velocities you claim. You may not think so but running 40k plus pressure in an auto pistol is a recipe for disaster.
 
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Dave, it appears to me you're trying to use equivalent pressures to the 10mm or 9x 25 dillon out of a case that has roughly 40% less available usable capacity.
 
Why?

The 9X23 Winchester has a pressure limit of 55,000 psi.
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My copy of QL reveals a peak of 43K for the 9 x 23. I'm not sure--but is Dave's base 9mm win mag case similarly thick-walled to handle those kinds of pressures in a small case capacity?
 
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thanks L-2--I noticed you're a Glock armorer. :)

As far as I can tell the 9mm win mag is simply an extended 9mm case and I assume walls, head rim etc are not built to handle the kinds of pressures that might be expected to run up in a short case low capacity design like the ROF. I looked up the 9 x 23 win conversion it it looks like it relies heavily on reinforced case to safely handle pressures of this kind--in other words the pistol itself could easily kaboom if for any reason the cartridge did not chamber and detonate perfectly. That's my guess--I'm not an expert.
 
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The 9X23 winchester brass with its thick walls was designed to safely contain its high operating pressure in an unsupported chamber.
 
The 9X23 winchester brass with its thick walls was designed to safely contain its high operating pressure in an unsupported chamber.
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Understood and I'm corrected for the 9 x 23 for which I'm not familiar (though I'd still be nervous)--but the base cartridge being used here is the 9mm win mag which as far as I can tell is not so designed. I could be wrong.
 
Understood and I'm corrected for the 9 x 23 for which I'm not familiar (though I'd still be nervous)--but the base cartridge being used here is the 9mm win mag which as far as I can tell is not so designed. I could be wrong.
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There's no need to be nervous. It's a proven case.

If a barrel chamber offers sufficient support for the case, pressures can be increased substantially. The 38 Super is an example of a case than can be pushed well beyond it's normal operating pressures if the chamber provides enough support. IPSC / USPSA shooters have done this for a couple decades. The 9X23 winchester was designed to make Major power factor in an unsupported chamber, whereas the 38 Super required a supported chamber for safe use at the same performance. I should add that the Super could make major safely with heavy bullets in an unsupported chamber (with the right brass), it was the light bullets that were a problem. That's when pressure started to exceed the brass' ability to provide safety.

9 Major is another example. Loaders are pushing 9mm Luger brass way beyond what it was designed for (probably 50,000 psi or so) when loading for IPSC / USPSA competition. It can be safely done with the right powders and in a barrel with sufficient case support. Competitors are using plain old 9mm luger brass to drive 115 grain bullets to around 1500 fps and 124 grain bullets to around 1400 fps. A fully supported chamber is required, but countless thousands of round are fired each month at USPSA competitions. Safely.
 
There's no need to be nervous. It's a proven case.

If a barrel chamber offers sufficient support for the case, pressures can be increased substantially. The 38 Super is an example of a case than can be pushed well beyond it's normal operating pressures if the chamber provides enough support. IPSC / USPSA shooters have done this for a couple decades. The 9X23 winchester was designed to make Major power factor in an unsupported chamber, whereas the 38 Super required a supported chamber for safe use at the same performance. I should add that the Super could make major safely with heavy bullets in an unsupported chamber (with the right brass), it was the light bullets that were a problem. That's when pressure started to exceed the brass' ability to provide safety.

9 Major is another example. Loaders are pushing 9mm Luger brass way beyond what it was designed for (probably 50,000 psi or so) when loading for IPSC / USPSA competition. It can be safely done with the right powders and in a barrel with sufficient case support. Competitors are using plain old 9mm luger brass to drive 115 grain bullets to around 1500 fps and 124 grain bullets to around 1400 fps. A fully supported chamber is required, but countless thousands of round are fired each month at USPSA competitions. Safely.
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Gotcha--though my question remains is the 9mm win mag--which is what is being used here in the ROF--is that safe enough to run at those pressures? It seems like a pretty big "unknown" to me.
 
9mm Winchester Magnum, 9x29, was meant for use in the Wildey pistol with rotary bolt akin to a rifle, and capable of handling rifle pressures.
Wiki says 45,000 psi, about like a .222 on that case head diameter.
Wildey focused on the bigbores and the only home of the 9mm W.M. that I know of is the conventional Automag Mk III, also made in .30 Carbine.

Starline makes the brass, I cannot google a source of Winchester brand but that may be because I am not willing to wade through all the 9mm P and 9x23 ads that Google throws up.

The advantage of 9x23 Winchester is said to be that it is of rifle temper, hard and strong for the Colt conventional barrel. I do not know if 9mm Win Mag cases are the same temper and I do not think Starline does the additional processing.

You have to be careful applying Quickload to a straight walled cartridge. One QL guru says it is a circular process, you have to tweak the inputs until the computed results equal real ammo.
 
Gotcha--though my question remains is the 9mm win mag--which is what is being used here in the ROF--is that safe enough to run at those pressures? It seems like a pretty big "unknown" to me.
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That depends on several things, but if the brass is up to at least 9mm-like specs and the chamber offers sufficient support, then it should be fine, in my opinion. Either way, one can run some tests on the brass with various loads to see if it up to the task. But the real issue is chamber support and what the actual pressures are. But at least for 125 grain bullets, the stated goal of 1500 fps can be done within 9X23 pressure parameters.

I see lots of panic in this thread from people who have zero experience loading high performance 9 Major, 38 Super and 9X23. I don't have very much experience with the really heavy bullets that Dave is using, but, for example, his goal of 1500+ fps with a 125 grain bullet is no problem if done properly.

A 9X23 factory load does that. My current lot number of Winchester factory 9X23 124 SP clocks at 1550 fps from a 5" barrel, and over 1600 fps from a 6" barrel. It's a hot lot number, but it does it with ease and the brass shows no evidence of dangerous expansion in an unsupported barrel.

The Winchester 9X23 brass' thick walls means reduced case capacity, which increases pressure. One could achieve the same performance in a 38 Super case at lower pressure because more case volume reduces pressure. In fact, with the right powders one can push 124 grain bullets in the 38 Super to 1450 fps at 38 Super pressures (limit = 36,500 psi) in an unsupported Colt barrel. See the link below, which I posted earlier. Adding a little more powder would easily push that the 1500 fps and would be lower than 9X23 pressures.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/super-powders-for-the-38-super/
 
That's cool and I agree--I too speak from ignorance concerning those cartridges, though I do have some experience with the 10mm and 9 x 25 dillon which appear able to beat these numbers with relatively lower pressures--at the expense of a few extra rounds in the mag doesn't seem like a big trade-off to me--but whatever. As reliable as the glock is--it tends to get "temperamental" once I start fussing with different cartridge lengths that affect how they stack in the magazines.
 
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