Would you put a red dot on a defensive handgun?
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I could see the laser being a help, if it "fired" its dot down the tube to the target when the hammer was dropped and showed the "hit". Other than that, whats it prove.
One thing I found extremely annoying with the lasers was the fact that the dot and the sights often didnt coincide. It just added to the confusion for me (Im confused enough
). Not that it really mattered for realistic use, but when youre used to seeing the sights when you present the gun, and the sights are one place, and the dot isnt there, it screws with your brain.
Well, that, and the fact that it looked like Katherine Hepburn was holding the gun when you tried to follow the dot.
One thing I found extremely annoying with the lasers was the fact that the dot and the sights often didnt coincide. It just added to the confusion for me (Im confused enough
). Not that it really mattered for realistic use, but when youre used to seeing the sights when you present the gun, and the sights are one place, and the dot isnt there, it screws with your brain.Well, that, and the fact that it looked like Katherine Hepburn was holding the gun when you tried to follow the dot.
Forgive my ignorance
Those red dot sights have batteries, right? So, wouldn't you have to leave it on while carrying to make it truly faster than iron sights? Personally, I never have ventured into battery land on personal firearms, but my friends have, and I admit some of those electronic sights are very nice. I like the idea of the ACOG, though, in that you don't need batteries. I would imagine that soon we'll no longer need batteries for these little guys, but that's another topic.
Those red dot sights have batteries, right? So, wouldn't you have to leave it on while carrying to make it truly faster than iron sights? Personally, I never have ventured into battery land on personal firearms, but my friends have, and I admit some of those electronic sights are very nice. I like the idea of the ACOG, though, in that you don't need batteries. I would imagine that soon we'll no longer need batteries for these little guys, but that's another topic.
I get it as far as people thinking lasers have no use, its a very traditionalist view and theres nothing wrong with that.
That said lasers do bring some things to the plate.
In instructing a beginner how to shoot is is very easy to show them when there not using their iron sights correctly because the laser is going to show pretty closley what they are actually aiming at.
The laser also makes it easier to understand the weaknesses in your own shooting as you can see the slight wiggles, no question about it.
I find I aquire targets faster and shoot even smaller groups.
I also think that in the right situation the laser is very threatening. Lets say your screaming "Stop don't make me shoot!!!" at the BG as you pull your weapon, the laser activates and you put that sucker right on the end of his nose or aimed into his eyes.
A) You mess up his vision.
B) It would seem to be dang hard to ignore.
Also in the right situation a red laser dot over a BG's heart could be the thing that convince him or her to surrender or cease.
Think about a encounter in a dark parking lot or similar area, that red laser or green or whatever says I mean business.
You and I know you can have the very good very effective sights but the one thing they dont give you is a intimidation factor and laser does.
A threat from a laser may mean the BG surrenders or retreats from blocking your path of retreat and the situation ends without the cost of life.
That said lasers do bring some things to the plate.
In instructing a beginner how to shoot is is very easy to show them when there not using their iron sights correctly because the laser is going to show pretty closley what they are actually aiming at.
The laser also makes it easier to understand the weaknesses in your own shooting as you can see the slight wiggles, no question about it.
I find I aquire targets faster and shoot even smaller groups.
I also think that in the right situation the laser is very threatening. Lets say your screaming "Stop don't make me shoot!!!" at the BG as you pull your weapon, the laser activates and you put that sucker right on the end of his nose or aimed into his eyes.
A) You mess up his vision.
B) It would seem to be dang hard to ignore.
Also in the right situation a red laser dot over a BG's heart could be the thing that convince him or her to surrender or cease.
Think about a encounter in a dark parking lot or similar area, that red laser or green or whatever says I mean business.
You and I know you can have the very good very effective sights but the one thing they dont give you is a intimidation factor and laser does.
A threat from a laser may mean the BG surrenders or retreats from blocking your path of retreat and the situation ends without the cost of life.
Assuming everything is "zeroed" for the appropriate distance, and the laser and barrel are close to being aligned. With some of the laser/light combos, this can be off by quite a bit, making it even worse.
A beginner should not touch a gun with a laser until they know how to shoot without one.
Slight wiggles?! I must have Parkinson's or the DT's.
I found it took me longer to acquire the target because I had sensory overload going on trying to figure out if I should be looking at the sights, or the trying to find the dot, so I was spending to much time "thinking about it" than I was just shooting what needed shot. I suppose I could have trained out of that, but then where would my sights be? To much confusion and complexity for me.
The other issue is, you have to look for and find the "dot" to know where the round is going, with traditional sights and red dots, the bullet goes where the front sight or dot is. Theres no looking around for anything but the target.
If hes bothering to look, maybe. Then again, he can put you behind the curve by moving quickly off line as he continues on (not every will quake in their booties because you have a gun, fancy sight or not). How good are you at tracking a moving target with your laser? Why are you looking for a little red dot and not just shooting the target? My night sights or red dot will allow me to do that.
I dont plan on intimidating anyone. If my gun is out at all, someone is very close to getting shot, if they arent shot already. This isnt the movies, where you come up with a cute line as you show your fancy Mr. Manly gun to them and try to impress them with whatever you got going on.
No. The fact youre about to shoot them tells them that. Doing so stresses your point.
99.99% of the time, I dont make threats. They just make things worse, as you always end up trying to live up to them. Or in this case, trying to catch up when the other side isnt impressed, and now has you looking for now missing, formerly well placed "dots".
Would there be some logic to not having the laser aligned with the weapon? Why would anyone do this? Its the same as saying well if my sights on the pistol are mis aligned I might miss, well no doubt, of course.
Not all of us only shoot a pistol as 7 or 15 or 25 feet, I myself prefer 50 - 70 feet and at that range the slightest wiggle is greatly magnified and yours would be also. The insult is funny though, if not appropriate.
You know I can honestly say I understand what your claiming here and if one simply looks for the dot and forgets about the sight this all goes away. Plus your eye is naturally going to fall in line with the sight even though your choosing to ignore it, so in the extremely unlikely event the laser fails your still ready to shoot.
In all sincerity a little patience and I think you might come to enjoy it and if not maybe its not for everyone but that doesnt make it some evil thing.
With a properly aligned laser you have the same exact thing so Im not sure how this arguement would hold water. Plus (I own and have and enjoy a nice red dot scope) In fact since the dot is on the target you can decide exactly where to add the new belly button and the laser beam is a visible threat.
Another self defeating arguement. Ive never heard of a BG quaking from a red dot scope either? You seem to want to argue how bad they are but the fact is the infantry and rangers make extensive use of them. In fact since about 2002 I cant ever recall seeing a infantry soldier that didnt have one mounted when they went to the field.
Are we to believe that infanty and rangers dont track targets with them? I certainly never said I cant track targets with them? Laser travels at what speed? Oh yea the speed of light, so what delay are you talking about?
In my scenario as presented I stated "in the right situation". I did not claim it would work every time or even often. Not every BG pointing a gun fires immediately, and if the BG was facing away from you and toward lets say a cashier you may well have the drop on him and is your life still not in danger by his very proximity.
So if I understand your arguement then the Police, SWAT and the Army all use lasers as some movie show piece? This is the arguement that makes sense to you?
I understand you were addressing me but as said then it seems reasonable that the same would apply to anyone using a laser...
Look I really understand your opinion and I get it. However in the event that I had to use my gun in a SD situation I am intending to shoot in the defense of my life also and Im in serious business mode.
The laser however gives me option that I dont have without it... Are you seriously going to drop a 16 year old boy that robs a gas station and is facing away from you or are you going to try to find a way to protect your life and not kill the kid.
I have fought in Afganistan and I have fired in anger and I have done what I had to do for my country and I would do it again so dont assume your talking to some arm chair commando because Ive been there and done that and got the tee shirt a few times over.
Can you say the same?
I want every possibility to be flexable, I want options. If my car is parked in a parking garage and there is only one way in and one way out because its late at night and everything is locked up a BG could put me in mortal danger.
That said due to the length of the parking lot I may have a short period of time when I can take a advantageous position behind a pillar or whatever and use the laser to make the threat to a BG which is openly carrying a weapon in his hand and moving rapidly toward me.
You are entitled its your life. I can see situations were my life could be in grave and immediate danger but I still choose to have one more option.
My force on force class was in Afganistan. I have served with just about every kind of troop you can name and maybe even some things you cant name and I dont remember.
I served as a Active Duty soldier from 1986 - 2007, I was not National Guard or Reserve, it was my day to day job.
I have been deployed to Afganistan, Qatar, Belize, Honduras, Ecuador and more and have been fired upon in both Honduras and Ecuador along with Afganistan. I have lived in deep jungle and survived in open desert and lived for months in the woods. I have served in Combat Arms, Guarded Nuclear Weapons and Stood on Border Guard during the cold war and this is just without even really thinking about it.
The pic isnt some store bought thing, look closely and you will see thats a personal pic.
No wonder the laser doesnt work for you guys, your blind.... And yes Im joking about you guys being blind.
You know if you dont want to hear a opinion on a site that lives on opinons I dont know what to say.
I dont claim to be right on everything and there are gaps in my knowledge of civilian weapons and I can only speak to army tactics from my time period in service. I will readily admit when Im wrong when proven so. If you think my experience has no value to you so be it. Its no skin off my nose.
You challenge me to think and I do the same. If Im too whatever about how I explain it Im sorry but I hate it when Arm Chair commandos act as if some book they read is the same as doing the real thing and Im not accusing anyone here of doing that but good heavens.
My purpose is to share reality as I experienced it, if thats not working for you I will be happy to go to another thread.
There are a few people on this forum with combat experience like myself, take it for whatever.
I served as a Active Duty soldier from 1986 - 2007, I was not National Guard or Reserve, it was my day to day job.
I have been deployed to Afganistan, Qatar, Belize, Honduras, Ecuador and more and have been fired upon in both Honduras and Ecuador along with Afganistan. I have lived in deep jungle and survived in open desert and lived for months in the woods. I have served in Combat Arms, Guarded Nuclear Weapons and Stood on Border Guard during the cold war and this is just without even really thinking about it.
The pic isnt some store bought thing, look closely and you will see thats a personal pic.
No wonder the laser doesnt work for you guys, your blind.... And yes Im joking about you guys being blind.
You know if you dont want to hear a opinion on a site that lives on opinons I dont know what to say.
I dont claim to be right on everything and there are gaps in my knowledge of civilian weapons and I can only speak to army tactics from my time period in service. I will readily admit when Im wrong when proven so. If you think my experience has no value to you so be it. Its no skin off my nose.
You challenge me to think and I do the same. If Im too whatever about how I explain it Im sorry but I hate it when Arm Chair commandos act as if some book they read is the same as doing the real thing and Im not accusing anyone here of doing that but good heavens.
My purpose is to share reality as I experienced it, if thats not working for you I will be happy to go to another thread.
There are a few people on this forum with combat experience like myself, take it for whatever.
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Youre misunderstanding what I was referring to. The laser is zeroed to a specific distance. If thats the same distance as the sights are zeroed, great, the dot and sights should coincide.
The problem comes in when they arent zeroed to the same distance. When you use the sights, you may, or may not see the dot at the same time. Not all lasers are CT's, and the ones that go on the rail with a light, magnify the problem to an even greater extent.
I shot anywhere from 0-50 yards with my handguns. Even close up, I found the wiggle annoying and more of a distraction than a help.
I never said they were evil, just I didnt find them to work well for me, if that wasnt obvious.
I can see for one, or maybe two limited uses, they may have a use, but for the most part, I dont see they are worth the money. A set of night sights or a good red dot makes more sense.
What do you use to "index" the dot? How do you know where to look for it if its not instantly where you "thought" it should be? How do you get it right back on your target, especially if its moving?
I own and use a number of red dots too, but they work differently than the lasers I've had or used did. When I look at the target as I shoulder the gun, the red dot is usually just where I was looking when the gun came up. If for some reason its not, I can instantly adjust. When the laser isnt where you thought it would be, you either have to shift to something else, or start looking for the dot so you can put it on the target. I just found it to not be anywhere near as natural as traditional sights or a red dot for quick, natural shooting.
My point was, hes not going to be looking for your scary dot. If he does, he can be gone from where the dot currently is, before you can pull the trigger.
With the red dot, you give nothing away, and putting it back on something moving is a lot easier.
The delay in reacquiring the dot, once its lost from a moving target. Where should your focus be then? Trying to reacquire the dot to get it back on the target, or shooting the target?
One question here too, so we're on the same page. Are you talking about using the dot with NVG's or in the open in all light where there is no "beam" to aid in finding the dot? The dots I've used rarely gave a "trace" unless there was something in the air to show the beam. Finding the dot once it was lost from a target, was usually a lot slower than just using sights or a red dot.
Cant remember the last time other than a movie where the police were using a laser to "target" the BG. Which departments do you know of that use them now as standard gear?
Nothing I want to throw around or brag about.
So youre saying your experience with lasers "and" handguns comes from your experience overseas? Your issue handguns use a laser? Is this something new, or you bought your own?
No Ak103 the army didnt issue me a hand gun in afganistan nor a pistol laser.
I could go point by point again but whats the use? There are many police departments that use lasers, simply turn on "cops" or whatever.
The military makes extensive use of lasers and for all of your wit and wisdom they find it better to have than not have.
If its not for you, its not for you. Some people choose differently and that doesnt make it wrong.
If you make it out my way, I will take you shooting, me with my laser and you without... Winner buys lunch, looser buys the beer that evening.
I could go point by point again but whats the use? There are many police departments that use lasers, simply turn on "cops" or whatever.
The military makes extensive use of lasers and for all of your wit and wisdom they find it better to have than not have.
If its not for you, its not for you. Some people choose differently and that doesnt make it wrong.
If you make it out my way, I will take you shooting, me with my laser and you without... Winner buys lunch, looser buys the beer that evening.
Black_Sheep
New member
I like things simple so mounting a laser sight on a handgun has never appealed to me. I do find them useful though, theres a laser and tactical light mounted on my 12 gauge and an Aimpoint on my .223...
Thank you for your service. That said, unless you were using laser sighted pistols in armed encounters in Afghanistan, you did not address the suggestion made.
The question wasn't whether or not you had experience with FoF, nor was the suggestion merely that you should get some experience with FoF. It was specifically that you get some experience with FoF using a laser sighted pistol.
With all due respect to those who have served, serving in the military, even having armed encounters or experiencing combat while serving in the military, does not automatically make a person an expert on all aspects of firearms and their use nor does it imply that such a person has experience with all types of firearms and firearms accessories.
Claiming that combat experience or military service automatically makes a person an expert on the use of laser-sighted pistols is an example of the logical fallacy of false appeal to authority. Obviously unless the person really is an expert on the use of laser-sighted pistols (due to training or real world experience with laser sighted pistols) his combat experience or military service is, in and of itself, insufficient to support a claim of expertise on the topic.