Would you put a red dot on a defensive handgun?

I've seen folks who are skilled lose the dot in a match. I've got fiber optic night sights on my main carry - a G19 and they are just fine.

As far as lasers - got one on my 642 when I got a present. I like it but train to use the sights.

Glenn
 
No, iron sights all the way.
I prefer iron sights all around. Simple and reliable which is what I want for defense. A better challenge for target shooting and leagues. More challenge = more fun. Sure hitting 580's is fun but breaking 500 with iron sights, to me that is heaven. I also like using iron sights for target because that makes for better proficiency in all the other areas as well. Kind of like everyone should know how to drive a stick shift ... just plain makes you a better driver. I just wish my league had an iron sights division so I don't have to compete against all the dots.
 
I can see how shooting iron sights on handguns and rifles make you a better shooter, but I don't see how driving a stick shift makes you a better driver, not to get the thread off topic or anything.
 
Being able to drive a stick, makes you a well rounded driver, but not necessarily a better one. It is harder to drive, drink coffee and text while shifting though. :)

Of course you should know how to shoot with iron sights, but you also have to be open minded and experienced enough to realize, that they may not be the best of all worlds, and not always the better choice.

The only way to understand what a red dot is and can do for you (on anything), is to spend some time with one and learn its strong and weak points, although I think you'll find more of the former than latter. Assuming appropriate use, I doubt you'll find many who have used "good" ones, who would go back to just the irons, if given the choice.
 
Why stop with a Red Dot?

How about a pink laser? How about black brazilian custom stocks?...orange flash lights...blue barrel compensators...2 tone silver finish...green muzzel weights...brown magazine pads...gold plated mag release button...rainbow high viz front sight...on and on and on and on.
 
Nah...

Not yet, at least.

I've used a JP sight mounted on top of my ACOG for close encounters, however, it'll be a while before I opt to mount one on my defensive hand guns.

The Doctor optic and the JP type of red dot sights, while small and light weight enough, don't have the intensity that I prefer out of a red dot sight. Until they can match the intensity of say, a C-more, or an EOtech, I'll stick with irons for a defensive hand gun.
 
How about a pink laser? How about black brazilian custom stocks?...orange flash lights...blue barrel compensators...2 tone silver finish...green muzzel weights...brown magazine pads...gold plated mag release button...rainbow high viz front sight...on and on and on and on.
Click to expand...
Been playing "Black Ops" I see. :D
 
I can see how shooting iron sights on handguns and rifles make you a better shooter, but I don't see how driving a stick shift makes you a better driver, not to get the thread off topic or anything.
Click to expand...

Learning to drive a stick-shift tends to put you in more direct touch with the vehicle. You pay attention to your RPM's, the sound of the engine, your throttle, what gear you're in, and helps you to remember that you're in a complex machine that works upon the basic laws of physics (i.e. acceleration, deceleration, friction, and inertia), instead of being in a magic people-mover that has a steering wheel, along with a stop and go button (like it seems so many people assume), that just tends to confound people to no end when they don't work absolutely all the time no matter what.

"Well, I had an accident. I pushed the stop button and the car didn't stop."
"Yah, but you were driving 65 miles and hour in the rain and waited until the last 35 feet to try and stop."
"I know, but I pushed the Stop button, REALLY HARD; and it STILL didn't stop. So... accident. Not my fault."
"You didn't have an accident, you had an Absolutely Idiotic."

Whereas someone who is in more tune with their vehicle is much closer to understanding these things with greater wisdom.

It's the same with a Red Dot versus Iron Sights. A Red Dot is easy.
"That represents where the bullet hits. Pull the trigger and that red dot on the target turns into a hole."
"That sounds easy enough."

Instead of learning that the front sight and rear sight are meant to be aligned at a specific angle to the bore axis to ensure that impact of the round and point of aim, when the rear of the weapon and the muzzle of the weapon are properly aligned in a 360 degree field of motion, are consistent to a certain range.

Now, take both of these people with their understandings to a range and tell them to take a shot to their 9 o'clock without lining up the sights and see who fairs better with their overall understanding. Or better yet, have them take a shot at extreme range (100yrds or so) and see who gets closer.

"I don't know why I'm not hitting it. The red dot's RIGHT ON IT."
Versus:
"Due to my understanding of the sight picture's relationship to the bore axis at effective ranges, I can conclude that beyond effective range, the relationship is skewed so that the round will impact lower, so by raising my front sight above a proper sight picture, I can increase the angle of the bore axis and attain greater distance."

______________________________________________________

That being said, I learned to drive on a manual. And I can drive an automatic like a Rockstar. Can the same be said for someone that learned on an automatic?

You should be trained with irons, but not having to shift does make driving much more care-free and easy. It's all preference.

(I'll take my shifter any day.)

~LT
 
Ah, but someone who knows how to shoot makes the hits much faster, from a variety of positions if necessary. Just like with the long guns.
 
If you have to dial anything, youre doing something wrong. :)

For those who havent shot a red dot sight, you dont look for the dot, you look at the target. The dot appears where youre looking on the target, just before you shoot it. Theres no thought, or having to look for, or align anything. Muscle memory puts the gun where it belongs and in the correct position/index, and the brain does everything else. So far, I've yet to find anything faster, and theres no confusion like there is with a laser in some cases (me being a major case with them :)).
 
can't see can't see

Mr. A speaks of his (LE) friend who's holster Glock has worn a dot for years.
On duty.

It has been pointed out to me that a dead dot is still a big ghost-ring, ay?
 
I probably would if they were set up to allow the use of iron sights as a backup.

Here's an example from Bowie Tactical Concepts website.

RMR_BUIS_2-458x339.jpg

RMR_BUIS_3_forum-149x130.jpg


Scroll down in the link below for some more examples.

http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/pictures.html
 
I use a Trijicon RMR equipped G26 or G19 as my everyday carry gun. I also have a AA .22 coversion kit fitted with a Burris FastFire II. I find it to be a huge advantage over irons for my aging eyes.

Not all red dots are equal. The RMR is by far the most durable of the lot (and the most expensive). There is no on/off switch, it is always on. Dot intensity adjusts to light conditions, so that in bright light, the dot is brighter and easy to see, where it is not as bright, less intensity is needed and less power is used. Battery life is in years- spend a couple bucks to change it every 6 months just to be safe.

Some set-ups are better than others. I had mine installed by One Source Tactical. The slide is milled to accept the RMR for a mounting that is lower and impossible to move around as the slot matches the curvature of the sight. It also is equipped with tall iron back up sights that the red dot co-witnesses with. Having the irons in place also limit the find-the-dot game.

I have trouble focusing on iron sights. First time out with the RMR equipped gun gave me about a 40% improvement in group size over irons. I am also on target much quicker with the red dot. I do have the 8MOA size dot on my defensive guns. This size is much easier to pick up compared to the 4MOA dot on the Burris.

I would agree with posters who criticize RDSs with on/off switches. I have found that the one on my Burris is very easily switched off during normal handling.

Weight is minimal, that is a not an issue. They really aren't bulky either, as you can see in the previous posters photo.

The main disadvantages are: 1. Price. A high quality RDS like the RMR can cost as much as the gun. 2. Holsters. Typical IWB holsters will not work with a RDS mounted pistol, you may have to go with a custom. 3. Weird looking. Although I am kind of getting used to mine.

For me, the advantages vastly outweigh the disadvantages.
 
I've been carrying a J-Point on my G19 since May 2010. I also added a tall front sight from Dawson to get somewhat of a co-witness with back-up sights. This combination has worked well for me.

I wanted to try the RDS/CCW concept without investing a lot of money, so I used these 'bolt-on' parts. I plan to get the OST milled set-up when funds allow.

There are many IWB holsters that allow the carry of an RDS on a handgun with no mods. Some may require a small slot to be cut out (mine did).

On the weight issue, the typical RMR weighs 1.7oz, and if you have the milling done close to an ounce of metal will be removed so it is a moot point. I have had no porblem CCWing the gun with the dot in the appendix-iwb position.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=426245

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413268
 
No, it's not misleading. Tim isn't the world's best writer sometimes.
Click to expand...

Not misleading? Interesting. What do you call it when all the "not best" writing errors and emphasis favor the product being sold? Apparently he was a good enough writer to make sure the words didn't portray his product in anything other than an outstanding manner. I don't know how you can say that isn't misleading. Even if it isn't intentional as you indicate, that doesn't mean it isn't misleading. The guy makes absolute statements that are not absolute. If it isn't misleading, then what is it?

Here's what's going on.

The Hexsites will always be the dead blackest thing you see in front of you, unless there's not enough light to ID the target, in which case you have no business shooting ...
Click to expand...

Thanks Jim for proving my point. "Always" with conditions is misleading as it isn't always if you have conditions, is it?

I think your buddy writes very clearly and he doesn't seem to mince words.
Focus the HexSite® sight aperture on a rock or bush on the tan hillside. No matter the color or shape, the target will always appear brighter than the aperture, because the dark color of the HexSite® sight contrasts with the natural lighter colors within the target zone.
Click to expand...

I noticed that he very deliberately picked out things on the hillside that were obviously a lighter color than the sights. He didn't pick anything black and he picked a bright day for his example photograph. What you call not being the best writer I would call a slick advertisement. The less than accurate aspects favor making the sight appear better than it is.

I did like the one low light picture he provided, the FX frame capture pic where he says that the HexSite is not obstructive becuase you look through it...at the threat area. The threat is the brightest thing in the image, which certainly isn't always the case in reality. And looking at the pic, apparently the HexSite makes the gun and your fingers transparent as well. Slick.

What appears in the aperature will NOT be brighter if the sight is backlit greater and more light is coming off of it than is coming off of a very dark target such as a guy in black inside of darkened building and you are outside with the sun behind you. It will may be darkest unless the sight is backlit and the target is in an area of less light.

Your buddy, did in fact show one image that indicates that backlighting the sight can be problematic. Remember, you said the sights will always be the dead blackest thing you see. "Dead black" turns out to be awfully light and bright grey when illuminated. Check out the quartering away view where the bold text states "The HexSite Sighting System is a revolution in target acquisition." Part of the dead black sight ain't dead black.

I also liked the sideways view of the SA 1911 with the Hexsights. The gun and the sights are the same color, mostly grey. Parts of the gun are definitely darker than parts of the sight as well as the shadow under the trigger.

It will be a sight that is good for a lot of circumstances, but it isn't without problems just like every other sight isn't without problems.

From the website...
The rear HexSite® sight's concavity makes it consistently the lowest light value in any environment, so visual focus is drawn to the always-lighter target area;
Click to expand...

This simply is not true if the sight is backlit and is therefore brighter than the target. Your eye will be drawn to the sight, not the target. So it won't be as claimed in "any environment."
 
DNS:

I honestly thought through every point you made while reading and exploring his site, but didn't take the time to say it. Well done, and thanks for rewarding my laziness.

~LT
 
JohnKSA,

wholeheartedly agree. I love shooting with red dot sights, I love technology - but I want something that I know will be there if something isn't working as it should. Below is one of the trijicon reflect site's on one of the fnforum member's tactical looking throught the site picture to cowitness as well. All of this right out of box if you have optics ready.

IMAG0625.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top