Would you put a red dot on a defensive handgun?

[AK103K]

Obviously, some here dont have experience with a "good" red dot, to understand what they are and what they do.

Right now, they are small enough to go on a gun that goes into your normal carry holster, with no real added bulk. Some guns can be set up so the iron sights are right there too, just like they are with your rifles, so you really have lost nothing, in the rare case the dot might go down, and battery life on the newer sights is a non issue. All that is "right now" too, I'm willing to bet, in the next 5 years or so, things will be even smaller, more rugged and longer lasting, and be getting cheaper too.

I suppose its like anything else, and its always amazed me, that those who are ignorant and inexperienced with change, will fight it at all costs, including their lives, simply because they are to narrow minded and fixed in their ways to learn something new.

How can you know something is"bad", if you yourself havent tried it and proved it so? Be careful here though, trying it, might just be an epiphany.

 

[NightSleeper]

All my HD guns are iron sights or night sights. I don't go for 'tactical-cool' designs.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

No. Too clunky. Too hard to conceal. Too heavy. Too cumbersome. Too useless for close defensive use. Won't fit on most small guns designed for concealed carry. Plus, what are you going to do when Bad-Guy-Bobo and friends are quickly approaching you in a WalMart parking lot - declare: "HAULT - I MUST FIRST HIT THE SWITCH ON MY AIMPOINT 6003 IF YOU WANT A FAIR FIGHT.....".

While some of these concerns are valid on a limited basis, some show significant ignorance of available products and applications.

At ~1.5 oz for some models, it is hard to argue that they are too heavy. If 1.5 oz makes your gun too heavy, then you have significant concerns that outweigh your ability to see the sights.

Red dots have proven quite useful close self defense use. Of course if the aggressor is so close you don't need the red dot sight, then you probably don't need iron sights either.

In regard to the comment about telling the aggressors to wait until you turn on your red dot sight, I don't know where you have been for the last several years, but battery life is now in multiples of years with the unit turned ON for many models.

Won't fit your tiny gun? Too bad. That does not mean the sights aren't useful on guns that will accept them.

Too clunky for concealed carry? Maybe so, but that doesn't mean the sights would not be beneficial for a HD pistol. And before you go to the argument that you should not be using a pistol for HD because it is a weak or ineffectice platform, that may be, but pistols get used for HD all the time.

Ditch the doo-dads, gizmos, Christmas lights, lasers, phasers, and xenon plasma blasters - all you need is a gun that is easy for you to conceal and carry with just enough power to do the job.

Sights are a doo-dad. I see that according to the criteria you say we need, sights do not enter the picture. So you are suggesting folks conceal carry a gun with no sights? So your ideal carry would be a straight pipe derringer?

 

[insolentshrew]

Obviously, some here dont have experience with a "good" red dot, to understand what they are and what they do.

Right now, they are small enough to go on a gun that goes into your normal carry holster, with no real added bulk. Some guns can be set up so the iron sights are right there too, just like they are with your rifles, so you really have lost nothing, in the rare case the dot might go down, and battery life on the newer sights is a non issue. All that is "right now" too, I'm willing to bet, in the next 5 years or so, things will be even smaller, more rugged and longer lasting, and be getting cheaper too.

I suppose its like anything else, and its always amazed me, that those who are ignorant and inexperienced with change, will fight it at all costs, including their lives, simply because they are to narrow minded and fixed in their ways to learn something new.

How can you know something is"bad", if you yourself havent tried it and proved it so? Be careful here though, trying it, might just be an epiphany.

Agreed.

Most good decent red dots are quite small, many of the models now even use ambient light to display the dot so no battery is required. A lot of the trijicon have a dual mode/uses ambient light unless you kick the battery on. Many of the people that I have read report that the ambient light function works plenty well so they never use the battery. The only gun I know of off the top of my head that I would be ready to rock a red dot on is a fnp45 tactical, but it is a fairly bulky gun. For the people saying you are having to remove the rear site....no, not quite. You couldn't do it with all guns but you would have to have the slide milled down & install new iron sites as well (see the fnp45 tactical with red dots mounted on them). Large iron sites that co-witness the red dot. So even if you have a red dot with the ambient light feature, and you don't have enough ambient light to power it when you draw. Guess what? You still have standard night sights to go with, isn't that just dandy?


IMO - Realistically the red dot sites themselves are ready for carry, the carry guns aren't ready for the right types of red dots.

 

[Mike Irwin]

No, and I'm not particularly much of a believer in lasers, either.

 

[LordTio3]

Personally, I don't know what all this "clunky", "bulky", "cumbersome" talk is all about considering people DO make accomodations to carry laser/flashlight modules on the rails of their weapons. Consider how bulky those are compared to this:

I wouldn't even be able to tell a difference. And we aren't talking concealed carry only, we're talking "carry": OC or CC.

So really, as long as I trained with it (I have had the good fortune of playing with a few at a gunshow), I would absolutely consider using one. It's much easier for me to see Only ONE sight alignment tool, rather than the THREE provided by a cup and post that I've been using for years; and I can do it at a glance. In a "police style shootout", you're going to be either aiming, point-shooting, or something in between; so I see no reason such a sight would slow you down even a step. In fact, at a glance, if you actually get to use one, you'll be impressed how easily you see your reticle in even generously lit environments.

So, if you've got the cash, sure. Why not do it? It's just a tool, and one that's easier to use than iron sights. If you disagree with that statement, give both to a completely green shooter and see which they find easier to pick up and use.

Again, that's just me.

~LT

 

[Japle]

If the mount ever shows up, I'll be putting a JPoint on my XDm 3.8 9mm for daily carry.

Last year, I installed a JPoint on my CZ75 SA for steel shooting. I loved it. 15 months later, the dot is still bright. After a couple of thousand rounds, the POI hasn't moved at all.

 

[vladan]

So, if you've got the cash, sure. Why not do it? It's just a tool, and one that's easier to use than iron sights. If you disagree with that statement, give both to a completely green shooter and see which they find easier to pick up and use.

LOL, funny you have mentioned.... I have witnessed exactly this situation (except the person given race gun with red dot sight was not a "green" but pretty seasoned shooter, just unfamiliar with this particular red dot). The issue was that the sight was turned off and he had to ask the owner to turn it on for him ... not exactly desirable situation when you are under threat.

So for me the question is not conceability but reliability ...

carry weapon has to be ready on immediate demand
- do you carry it with sights ON? and expend battery every few weeks/months? How do you know that this won't be the day the battery runs out?
- or do you think you are so fast and have such a presence of mind that you'll be able to turn the sights on when drawing on threat under the pressure? ...I think not ...
And pressure switch just add another failing point to the gun

 

[LordTio3]

If the mount ever shows up, I'll be putting a JPoint on my XDm 3.8 9mm for daily carry.

Last year, I installed a JPoint on my CZ75 SA for steel shooting. I loved it. 15 months later, the dot is still bright. After a couple of thousand rounds, the POI hasn't moved at all.

Aaah first hand accounts. Worth 18 pages of speculation. Thank you for contributing.

~LT

 

[LordTio3]

carry weapon has to be ready on immediate demand - do you carry it with sights ON? and expend battery every few days? - or do you think you are so fast and have such a presence of mind that you'll be able to turn the sights on when drawing on threat under the pressure? I think not ...
And pressure switch just add another failing point to the gun

Battery tech has improved enough to use a 4G cell phone as a mobile Wi-Fi hotspot for hours. Remember that.

You turn the sights on and LEAVE them on. The batteries for these will literally last for Years. Replace them on your birthday every year and you literally NEVER have to worry about them.

Moot point. And it's already been mentioned above.

AND

I never carry anything that I'm not completely familiar and trained with. No one should. So the shooter's situation that you mentioned is also a moot point. Of course he's going to need something explained. He has 0 experience with it. But I'll bet you all the money in my bank account that that 1.5 second lesson was ALL he will ever need on the subject. Case closed.


~LT

 

[insolentshrew]

Aaah first hand accounts. Worth 18 pages of speculation. Thank you for contributing.

~LT

I don't have any firsthand experience with the type of red dots that I would be used for carry, but I have shot with plenty of red dots on pistols and find them a pleasure and easy to use.

As for such sites that would be used for carry, I have read a number of first hand reviews from fnp45 tactical owners and the popularity of the trijicon rmr to be mounted on it. Do a little searching and you are sure to come across them as well. General consensus is people love them and the product exceeds what they expected. Even though it is not a super popular topic on these forums does't mean it isn't commonplace elsewhere.

 

[Skans]

Too clunky for concealed carry? Maybe so, but that doesn't mean the sights would not be beneficial for a HD pistol. And before you go to the argument that you should not be using a pistol for HD because it is a weak or ineffectice platform, that may be, but pistols get used for HD all the time.

I made no mention about Home Defense - I'm sure they can work ok for that, but I really don't see the advantage over a simple set of good night sights. All of the guns pictured are full-sized guns - and yes, the red-dot sight, and the guns pictured, are clunky from an every-day concealed carry standpoint. Just my opinion - you can choose to believe what you want.

 

[mordis]

Skans the advantage of the red dot over night sights is that they are far faster to get back on target and fire that first shot and faster follow up shots. Secondly and just as importantly, it allows you to focus on both the sight and the target. Instead of a fuzzy rear sight, and clear front sight and fuzzy target, you get a clear target and a clear sight picture. That sounds just about perfect for someone with aging eyes and or the unitiated.

IF cost wernt the issue id put them all my handguns.

 

[Jim March]

Red Dots change the game by allowing you to focus on the target instead of the front sight. This is a major, serious improvement in combat shooting on both practical and moral grounds.

There is of course a way to get that same effect with no batteries, glass or wires, in a sight still classed as an "iron sight", with less than 1/3rd the bulk of the smallest glass sights made - small enough that they fit in all conventional holsters. It's called a Hexsite. It works. For real. You don't need co-witnessed iron sights as backup because the primary sight is as reliable as any iron sight made.

http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/index2.htm

http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/pdf/Handguns_2008June.pdf

It feels like you're shooting a red dot, except with no actual red dot to get in the way. That last is actually important. We have an older, more primitive visual processing center in our brains that is tuned to be able to track fast-moving threats. It can only see in black & white and it's wired straight to our muscles with no intervening concious thought required. The Hexsite seems to be able to work with this secondary visual processor better than anything else out there. As a result, once the sights are aligned with your eyes, you don't need to make any other concious decision to maintain that alignment. Wherever you look, there's the gun. You DO maintain concious control over the trigger, just not the aiming. Switching between targets is rocket fast.

And because you're looking at the target, you get that same extra safety factor as with red dots: you can tell when somebody is pulling out a wallet, cellphone, knife or small gun and make the correct shoot/no-shoot decision far more reliably.

Both red dots and the Hexsite are fundamentally more moral than trying to mis-use target sights with front-sight-focus as combat sights.

My daily-carry-without-fail gun is now equipped with sights that Tim Sheehan of Goshen designed but hasn't released yet himself, so I can't show pics . They are "hex-based" like his standard production sights, they're target-focused, past that I can't talk about them. The current-production Hexsites are still better for the sort of mid-to-large autos Tim sells them for and mounts them on, and in that sense they compete directly with the red-dot-equipped Glocks/XDs/FNs/1911s/etc. seen on this thread so far - at small fraction of the cost.

Hexsites for Glocks are a user-installable bolt-on for $125 I think it is. Having Tim custom-mount them to anything else is about double that, but still way, WAY under red dot prices (esp. with added custom co-witnessed iron sights as a backup to the glass).

 

[Erik]

Re the durabilty, bulk, weight, battery life issues... The folks who run these haven't noticed much in the way of inconvenience, except perhpas holster selection or modification. And the Trijicon LED RMR seems to be the preferred unit in serious circles, for what it is worth.

 

[t45]

Not me. Dont see any advantage.

 

[Hook686]

No. I find red dot sights not that easy to see, especially in bright light. The body takes up space and handling becomes cumbersome. I do not care for this in a personal defensive weapon.

 

[Major Beef]

Red Dots change the game by allowing you to focus on the target instead of the front sight. This is a major, serious improvement in combat shooting on both practical and moral grounds.

There is of course a way to get that same effect with no batteries, glass or wires, in a sight still classed as an "iron sight", with less than 1/3rd the bulk of the smallest glass sights made - small enough that they fit in all conventional holsters. It's called a Hexsite. It works. For real. You don't need co-witnessed iron sights as backup because the primary sight is as reliable as any iron sight made.

http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/index2.htm

http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/pdf/Handguns_2008June.pdf

It feels like you're shooting a red dot, except with no actual red dot to get in the way. That last is actually important. We have an older, more primitive visual processing center in our brains that is tuned to be able to track fast-moving threats. It can only see in black & white and it's wired straight to our muscles with no intervening concious thought required. The Hexsite seems to be able to work with this secondary visual processor better than anything else out there. As a result, once the sights are aligned with your eyes, you don't need to make any other concious decision to maintain that alignment. Wherever you look, there's the gun. You DO maintain concious control over the trigger, just not the aiming. Switching between targets is rocket fast.

And because you're looking at the target, you get that same extra safety factor as with red dots: you can tell when somebody is pulling out a wallet, cellphone, knife or small gun and make the correct shoot/no-shoot decision far more reliably.

Both red dots and the Hexsite are fundamentally more moral than trying to mis-use target sights with front-sight-focus as combat sights.

My daily-carry-without-fail gun is now equipped with sights that Tim Sheehan of Goshen designed but hasn't released yet himself, so I can't show pics . They are "hex-based" like his standard production sights, they're target-focused, past that I can't talk about them. The current-production Hexsites are still better for the sort of mid-to-large autos Tim sells them for and mounts them on, and in that sense they compete directly with the red-dot-equipped Glocks/XDs/FNs/1911s/etc. seen on this thread so far - at small fraction of the cost.

Hexsites for Glocks are a user-installable bolt-on for $125 I think it is. Having Tim custom-mount them to anything else is about double that, but still way, WAY under red dot prices (esp. with added custom co-witnessed iron sights as a backup to the glass).

The hexsites look great. Never heard of them before. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Personally, I don't know what all this "clunky", "bulky", "cumbersome" talk is all about considering people DO make accomodations to carry laser/flashlight modules on the rails of their weapons. Consider how bulky those are compared to this:

There may be other more bulky items to put on a pistol and some more bulky than others, but just because some are bigger than red dot sights does not mean the red dot sights aren't bulky.

It's called a Hexsite. It works.

Neat sight. I found the ad to be a bit misleading and I always find that to be troubling. If the product is so good, why the misleading statements?

Focus the HexSite® sight aperture on a rock or bush on the tan hillside. No matter the color or shape, the target will always appear brighter than the aperture, because the dark color of the HexSite® sight contrasts with the natural lighter colors within the target zone.

Sure enough in looking at the image, if you look at the rocks or bushes in the image, then they all are lighter than the sight, but the statement made is that no matter the color of shape, the target will always appear brighter than the aperature and that is flat out wrong when that color is dark or the lighting is bad. This is a problem with all black sights in general. It is always a bit of a shock to draw your gun and point it at a dark target only to find that your sights have disappeared on you because they don't contrast with the target.

Here is the explanation for how it works...

•All sighting is done by light value contrast. The eye gravitates to subjects of highest (brightest) light value. The rear HexSite® sight's concavity makes it consistently the lowest light value in any environment, so visual focus is drawn to the always-lighter target area;

Note the misleading statement.

When you are on the web page, your cursor becomes of of their rear sights. Cool. Unfortunatly, you can't run it over the picture where they say the rocks and stuff will appear lighter as the cursor reverts back to normal over the image. However, if you run it over the black bar at the top of the page with the words HOME REVIEWS & FEEDBACK etc., the issue of the disappearing sight become readily apparent even if the sight isn't.

A lot of shooting takes place in low light situations and a lot of bad guys do wear black.

It may be a fine pistol peep sight, but their claims are most definitely misleading.

 

[Jim March]

Sure enough in looking at the image, if you look at the rocks or bushes in the image, then they all are lighter than the sight, but the statement made is that no matter the color of shape, the target will always appear brighter than the aperature and that is flat out wrong when that color is dark or the lighting is bad. This is a problem with all black sights in general. It is always a bit of a shock to draw your gun and point it at a dark target only to find that your sights have disappeared on you because they don't contrast with the target.

No, it's not misleading. Tim isn't the world's best writer sometimes.

Here's what's going on.

The Hexsites will always be the dead blackest thing you see in front of you, unless there's not enough light to ID the target, in which case you have no business shooting and you need to pull out a friggin' flashlight or duck somewhere until you change the lighting situation.

Hexsites achieve "dead black" via a combination of things:

* The rear center hex piece is recessed such that the core is in shadow;

* The front sight (a conventional sized post) has dimples in it (in his latest editions) that stay dead black.

* Both the front and rear have high-tech polymer coatings over steel cores or bases that eliminate "glint points".

When the sights are darker than the target, you can use them as long as there's enough light to ID the target at all. And you can get that much light by bouncing the output of a good AA-based flashlight (call it 50-60 lumens, well under what a Surefire or the like can do) off the FLOOR, never mind directly lighting up the target.

Hexsites work great in low light.

The weird thing is, it's hard to conciously tell that that's the case! To test it properly, when I was in Tim's shop he had me quickly point a Hexsite-equipped airsoft Glock at a target in his large shop after dark, with one very small light available deep in one corner. I could ID the target, line the gun up, freeze like that, and then he'd shine a light on the sights so I could confirm that I did indeed have a perfect sight picture going. It was downright bizarre. The reason it works is because of that "more primitive visual processor" - it's picking up simpler queues and can function at lower light than our concious sight can operate.

Now, I haven't made it clear in this thread yet but I don't actually own a Hexsite. Tim has allowed me to pursue development of my "Goshdarn Hacksite" clone of his setup, for a gun he's very unlikely to support any time soon:

Lacking his high-tech polymer coatings, I solved the "glint problems" by wrapping my whole sight setup front to rear in a tube! And yeah, it works, supremely well. As a bonus it's ridiculously quick on the draw, because there's no "front sight lump". If the rules would let me and I was into that sort of thing, I could use this bad boy in cowboy fast draw competition .

Pictured above is what I call the "Mk4" Hacksite. I'd love to show you the Mk5, it looks way cooler, it's tougher and it works better yet, but it incorporates design ideas Tim himself hasn't published yet - so no pics or description allowed. Something like it may actually ship as a revolver solution at some point.

Real Hexsites for handguns fit in standard holsters. My "Hacksites" emphatically don't...so that got me into doing my own custom leather.