Would you put a red dot on a defensive handgun?

Absolutely not. I have matured beyond the gimmick buying stage. Iron sights don't have electronics to fail in a moment of unprecedented need. You say batteries last 10 years (the cell phone makers need to get in on that, can't get 10 hours out of one), that's great. But if the overworked Chinaman making a nickel an hour that soldered the wires on your red dot was having a bad day, you might have a worse one.:eek:
 
Absolutely not. I have matured beyond the gimmick buying stage. Iron sights don't have electronics to fail in a moment of unprecedented need. You say batteries last 10 years (the cell phone makers need to get in on that, can't get 10 hours out of one), that's great. But if the overworked Chinaman making a nickel an hour that soldered the wires on your red dot was having a bad day, you might have a worse one.
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If you actually look at the links, you would see that in the unlikely event (if you buy a quality unit) of failure, there are BUIS on the milled units.

I never said '10' years. Not sure where that came from?

I only said 'years'. I know of several Aimpoint and RMR batteries that have lasted 2+ years. The one in my J-Point has been constantly on (and carried in a holster) for 10 months now with no zero loss.

The trick is to not buy NCStar :rolleyes:
 
At seven yards and in, you could easily remove any and all sights from your pistol and it would still allow you to get the hits you need. It is a myth that you need sighst for close range gunfighting. What you need sights for is for shots beyond seven yards, or for small targets such as an elbow or a foot, or an eyeball, at close ranges of zero to ten yards.

A laser is OK as long as the light levels have diminished enough to see it. You can easily see a Surefire X400 laser at 2300 HRS, but not so easily at 1100 HRS. A red dot you can see at all times.

Any and all advancements are excoriated among the traditionals. Yet, myths have been killed left and right in the past few years. The world of the "all sights all the time at all distances" has been shown to utter nonsense. There are times you need sights and times you do not. But when you do, as our soldiers have learned, the red dot sight beats the hell out of the irons. Argue if you wish, but the red dot sight on handguns is the future and in five years we will be seeing them on factory guns and in the holsters of all modern shootists.

www.reddotpistols.com
 
Red dot

Would I? I have. I took it (them) off. Why? Primarily there is no need for a dot sight at combat distances and - as noted earlier - probably not for any sights.
Also - hard to find a holster that would accommodate the gun with even a small reflex sight.
Mostly, though, it's just unecessary.
Pete
 
Posted by Red Dot:
At seven yards and in, you could easily remove any and all sights from your pistol and it would still allow you to get the hits you need.
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Obviously, you’ve never shot the “Smoke & Hope” stage in Steel Challenge. ;)
I’ve seen AMU, Team S&W and Team Glock pro shooters miss the 18” X 24” target at 9 yds. And no one was shooting at them!
Argue if you wish, but the red dot sight on handguns is the future and in five years we will be seeing them on factory guns and in the holsters of all modern shootists.
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I agree.
I wonder how long it will be before IDPA has a class for us "modern shootists"!


Posted by darkgael:
Also - hard to find a holster that would accommodate the gun with even a small reflex sight.
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Every holster I have for my Glocks, CZs, 1911s and XDs will work just fine with the JPoint-type sight.
 
Also - hard to find a holster that would accommodate the gun with even a small reflex sight.
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I've carried mine daily for almost a year in a very slightly modified Appendix IWB holster. It's really no problem.
 
holster

I've carried mine daily for almost a year in a very slightly modified Appendix IWB holster. It's really no problem.
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Every holster I have for my Glocks, CZs, 1911s and XDs will work just fine with the JPoint-type sight.
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Well then, I stand corrected. Guess I didn't look hard enough.

A question, though......carrying a Jpoint/Docter style sight.....it seems that you'd have to carry the thing with its hood off. What is battery life like when that is the case?
Pete
 
A question, though......carrying a Jpoint/Docter style sight.....it seems that you'd have to carry the thing with its hood off. What is battery life like when that is the case?
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Yes, you do need to have the hood off. It's been posted in a few places already, but Trijicon lists 2 years as life expectancy, IIRC. My JPoint is on 10 months constant on.

(The battery that came with my Jpoint crapped out in only two weeks, but no telling how long it had been in the box. Don't judge battery life until you put a fresh one in the sight and keep track of it)

So, you change a $2 battery once a year when you do your smoke detector and set the clocks back. No big deal really. On the dovetail mounted units, you will probably have to re-zero, but the milled units go back to zero and you have the BUIS to check them by.

On the holster thing, I had to cut a slight slot in the kydex IWB holster I use to allow the gun to fully seat. I have several leather IWB holsters that no cut was necessary, but I don't use them anymore as I prefer the thinner kydex now.
 
There'd have to be a button on the grip to turn on the red dot. I don't think its feasible to leave it on all the time. Lasers are the same way although you'd obviously no want to have a laser on constantly even if you could. I have one on a 44 mag. Anaconda and its the cat's meow but that big ole' six incher is no CCW gun.
 
There'd have to be a button on the grip to turn on the red dot. I don't think its feasible to leave it on all the time.
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What part of 'constant on' and '2-year battery life' is so hard to understand? :confused:
 
What part of 'constant on' and '2-year battery life' is so hard to understand?
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I think its the experience with the cheaper red dots, or maybe the lack of experience altogether, thats the problem there.

Then theres all the "misinformation" passed around on the net too.
 
I didn't feel like reading 6 pages of post, and my answer is simply NO. I would not put a red dot on a carry gun. I do really like night sights, and have a bodyguard 38 with a laser. For range or hunting I see no problem with a red dot, but not carry. I mean low profile sights sometimes can snag.
 
With all due respect to those who have served, serving in the military, even having armed encounters or experiencing combat while serving in the military, does not automatically make a person an expert on all aspects of firearms and their use nor does it imply that such a person has experience with all types of firearms and firearms accessories.
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Your absolutely correct and I do not have expertise in all firearms nor pistols with lasers in combat.

But I am or was familiar, proficient or very proficient with in the military arms arena.
45 ACP - extensive
M3A1 Grease Gun - extensive
M16A1 -extensive
M16A2 -extensive
M85 - moderate
M2HB - extensive
LAW - moderate
M203 - moderate
AT4 - extensive
US and Soviet Anti tank mines and mine clearing - extensive
Gernades, including WP - extensive
HEAT - Extensive
HEP - Extensive
APFDS SABOT - Very Extensive
APERS - Minor
Claymore - Extensive
M4 - None
M1A1 Abrams - Very Extensive
M60A3 - Very Extensive
M60 Machine Gun - Moderate

I was also a Master Driver and one of only a handful certified to train people to drive using night vision devices, Jungle Warfare School Award Winner, Geman Commando Badge, and the list goes on and on.... Back in the day and even now "Be all that you can be is still in effect" :)

I am not an expert in all things but you can take it for however little or much you think its worth. I know where I have been and what I have done and what I have seen. If what I say has been of some help or use to you then great if not hey I tried.

Something operating at the speed of light is hard to out run and laser is widely employed with virtually all combat arms troops so it must have some value.

Take it for what its worth or not worth.... :) Its not the end of the world. :p
 
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I wasn't asking for a resume nor was I trying to imply that your experience level was lacking.

Short term strategy: I was pointing out a flaw in the logic of your response; namely that your military experience has no bearing on the topic you were debating since none of your experience has anything to do with the comparison of laser sighted pistols with pistols that have conventional sights. Therefore citing your military experience as support for your opinion about laser sighted pistols is problematic.

Long term strategy: I was trying to prevent future discussions and debates on TFL from turning into "urination olympiads".

Example of a "urination olympiad".

Poster A: I like the 260 Remington.

Poster B: I don't like the 260 Remington.

Poster A: It's very popular in silhouette and rifle competitions and is similar in performance to the 6.5x55Swede which is known for accuracy in Europe. The people I know who have experience with it are very impressed with the cartridge.

Poster B: I have 30 years of law enforcement experience and I'm not impressed with it so you are obviously wrong and I am obviously right.​

That kind of thing turns a discussion from a debate about facts to a personal contest where one person is trying to prove that his experience (which in the case of the example above don't have any real bearing on the topic at hand) is superior to someone else's experience which may or may not have any real bearing on the topic either.

Now, on the other hand, if Poster B were to say something like:

"I have been a top ranked competitor in F Class since its inception, have extensive experience with high-power rifle silhouette, and have hunted with the 6.5x55 Swede for 15 years and the .260 Remington for the last 5 years. I don't care for the .260 Remington because of <list of facts>."​

Then that would be another story entirely. It's no longer a matter of saying "My experience is better than yours (even though none of it really applies to this topic) so I'm right." it's now a matter of saying: "I have the following RELEVANT experience to add some weight to my opinion and to lend some credence to the facts I'm about to quote."
 
I'm looking at red dots for target pistols but think I'll stick with Crimson Traces on the defensive pistols (Sig 228, Sig 229 and Glock 19). Most of my practice time is laser "off" but I do like the idea of getting that red spot on target "right now."
 
To help clear up some misconceptions:

The sight is too big:
The RMR adds approximately 1" height to the rear of the slide. It poses no concealment issues. My typical clothing is jeans and a t-shirt here in Florida.

It weighs too much:
the sight weighs 1.2oz; about half of that weight is removed from the slide when the slide is milled. So it doesn't significantly increase weight.

You'll be hunting for the dot:
With a solid understanding of the fundamentals of shooting you won't have an issue with hunting for the dot. You present as you normally would and the dot is there superimposed over the front sight.

Batteries fail:
Yep they do; that is the reason for the backup iron sights. The manufacturers specs are a battery life of 2 years of continuous use or 4 years of dark storage. TSD recommends changing the battery once a year.


It's not needed for up close:
Very true, point shooting works fine in the under 10 yard engagement, the RMR shows it's value for precision shots from 3 to 40+ yards and torso shots out to 100+ yards consistently.




My EDC gun has been a G21SF since 07 when they were introduced. I added an RMR last fall and haven't noticed any issues. I carry AIWB and have done everything from riding my motorcycle to putting up dry wall. Last week I put a 20' x 20' wood floor in my storage shed.
Last month while teaching a class I was shooting from behind cover at 15 yards I was consistently able to pick which eye I wanted to shoot on the targets as well as consistently hit the sternum notch. I had a friend on the range last week that is a mediocre pistol marksmen consistently hitting clay pigeons and coke cans at 43 yards within 5 minutes of picking the gun up. It's also a great addition for those of us who are getting a little older and wearing bifocals; no more bifocal shuffle to see your sights.

This is 26 rounds of Blazer shot with my elbows rested on a table at 15 yards; the yellow square is 3.5".
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Eleven rounds from the holster at 10 yards rapid fire.
DSC00085.jpg


With the suppressor barrel installed.
DSC00084.jpg



Take Care,
Don
 
In my view... when it comes to defensive handguns, The front sight IS the red dot... If you know what I mean.

I think it would take less time to find your front sight on a target, then to learn to keep a small window containing a red dot in constant view...

Also, if your handgun needs to be in effect yet is not able to be brought to eye level in line with the target, you will not see the red dot, but you might still be taking the time to think about finding the dot... at which point, it may be too late.

Standard Iron sights can be seen consistently, and you can learn to point them, and then bring them up to increasing degrees of accuracy, until you have a normal sight picture as if you were shooting a rifle at long range.

Thats why I think Night sights are so valuable.

I think it is a different story with a rifle, since the gun is normally fired from a "supported" position on your shoulder. Keeping the red dot in line with your sight.

My biggest reason for Iron sights only is that I dont want to have 2 sighting systems to think about... It would require me to make an extra decision, to decide if I was going to use one system or another depending on the confrontation. Generally a self defense handgun will be used at close range, and a smooth transition from "point" shooting to "index" shooting to "front sight shooting" to "dual sight aimed shooting" is a more natural progression than changing from Irons to a red dot depending on the vertical level of your gun in relation to your eye's. In my opinion of course :D

But there is no doubt... a red dot is has advantages, it will allow for faster accurate shots made at medium to long range.

When it comes down to it... what ever you feel the most comfortable shooting is probably what you'll be best at.
 
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There really isn't anything to be lost with running this setup. If you are firing from a close retention position, you aren't going to have time to use the sights, you're firing from close retention because you cannot push out due to time and proximity of the target. In that case, it's a simple hammer drill on the trigger and aim in general direction. In this situation there's nothing to be gained from night sights.

I run night sights on my Glock 19 ... I shoot it in IDPA and have found that the front sight becomes fouled and that forces my eyes to pick-up the rear dots faster than the front sight. It's actually slowing me down because I'm hunting for the front sight.

Picking up the red dot is not hard at all. Anyone that has ran an Aimpoint or an EoTech on a rifle can tell you that it's not hard to pick them up, in fact, it's easier. That's part of the reason why the military has gone to red dots as their close range battle optic.

The red dot is also faster and more accurate. Once you do pick up the dot, you know exactly where the bullet is going to go. There's no processing windows for windage, theres no trying to find minute details in sight alignment, it's simple and that makes it MUCH more accurate at speed. That's why IPSC Open Class guns run red dots.

I think alot of dissenting opinions come from people that haven't yet tried them. I suggest keeping an open mind and getting your mitts on one before really discrediting their operation. I think you'll find it's a pretty cool setup.
 
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