Why not the 30-06?

For the .270 Win./.30-06 Spg. respectively, the bullets of similar BC, SD, and application are:

Medium game: 130 gr./150 gr.
Large game: 150 gr./180 gr.

These are the loads to compare.
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Says who? Those are your personal comparisons. The reputation of the .270 was made on the 130 grain bullet. Any comparison of the 130 grain .270 bullet compared to the 150 grain .30-06 bullet is but a biased effort to show that the .270 is somehow "better".

Your categories of "Medium game" and "Large game" are completely arbitrary and thus meaningless...here in Michigan, the state considers deer to be"Large game" and many .270 shooters have not qualms about using the 130 .270 bullets on deer ("large game").
 
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I think that I can give you the correct answer here, it's a very simple thing.

The 30-06 is, for the most part, a round for bolt action rifles only. Lots of people want a lever, this seems to be the second most popular design for larger game.

If you look at the available cartridges that can be used on deer starting with the .243 and ending with the .300 win mag, you have about ten popular competing bolt action rounds. Start at 7-08, 7 mag, .270, .308, the 6.5 rounds, and the short magnums.

It's possible that there are probably more rounds of 30-06 ammunition sold than almost any of the other hunting rounds. It's possible that there are more rifles existing in 30-06 than any of the other rounds, and that in the past, more rifles were sold in that caliber than any other of those normal bolt action rounds.

At this point, I don't think that the 30-06 is the most popular seller compared to all of the individual numbers, I think that it may be the fifth most popular rifle caliber in new rifle sales.

So, if there are eight or so rifle cartridges that are more popular than the .06, and several other types of guns that can't even fire the .06 such as the 30-30, the 30-06 bolt gun will be pretty obviously sell very few rifles, but then, so will the .260 rem, .22-250, other more specialized rifles and calibers. Then again, you will still have a huge assortment of guns and calibers that aren't even close to being related to an ordinary 30-06 rifle.

Take that into account, that the 30-06 bolt is only really useful for deer and other medium to large game, and you have a myriad number of rifles available for every use from prairie dog to elephant.

I would be literally astounded to find out that you sell more than one 30-06 rifle for every fifty rifles of other styles and calibers. It's sort of like the chevy truck, it may be a hugely popular vehicle, but when you count it against every other wheeled vehicle sold, it's an extreme rarity. Count chevy trucks the next time you drive down a highway and you will see what I mean.

I tried to give you some actual numbers but couldn't get any.
 
'06

I have a pal who wheels and deals in private gun trades on a regular basis. He prefers not to handle .308 sporters, as he claims they do not sell well for him. It may be that our corner of AL is a bit backward, but the '06 (and .270) are still very popular and apparently trade well. The 6.5 CR is the new darling and is more popular than I thought it wold be here. Most guys still take their whitetails at 100 yds and under, and any traditional cartridge would suffice (but what fun would that be?).

I only recently started to hunt t 30 '06 when I acquired a very nice mannlicher stocked Mark X Mauser carbine in that caliber for a decent price, as the butt had been shortened by an idiot. I solved the butt pad issue, but do not hunt the Mark X all up power wise, loading 180 gr RN to about .300 Savage levels at 2450+ fps and seems a sure killer on whitetails. Full house 180's get your attention in that short 20" barrel. I've also burned up a lot of -'06 cartridges in M1 Garands in recreational shooting, no competition.
 
Take that into account, that the 30-06 bolt is only really useful for deer and other medium to large game, and you have a myriad number of rifles available for every use from prairie dog to elephant.
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Sorry to break the news, but the above (deer to Moose) are 90% (maybe better?) of game taken.

Prairie dog is really a form of target shooting.

And I do agree on the 270. Its claim was flatter shooting with 130 gr bullets. Its more recent that the 150s and 160 gr has been adapted. If a 6.5 is good for moose then a 270 is as well.

Any time anyone comes out with a new rifle, its got 30-06 (and 270) as the first out.
 
Sorry to break the news, but the above (deer to Moose) are 90% (maybe better?) of game taken.
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I don't get your point. Would deer or moose, or elk or even pronghorn not be included in

medium to large game
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and at what point did anyone say that we are only considering hunting rifles? We've generally ignored anything that isn't in the class of "deer rifles". But by adding them in, the tactical, varmint, precision, what we will do is just add another pile of rifles into the mix of rifles that are outselling the '06.

If I went to academy this afternoon, out of the thirty or so rifes, there wouldn't be a precision rifle or varmint and probably only a couple of '06 bolts.
 
Am pretty sure the .30-40 Krag is not considered a black powder cartridge...
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Agreed, I lumped it in with that as it was the same concept of a round nose bullet per the 45-70 etc. I believe they tired to hot rod it and did not work so good.
 
The story of the krag, as I remember it, was that it was designed and created with smokeless powder as a component. Both the 30-30 and the 30-40 were done this way, and interestingly (to me, at least) they did both use the powder weight as the second designation, following the black powder conventions of the time. they both used a charge of the primitive smokeless powder, probably nothing but nitrocellulose, in charge weights of 30 and 40 respectively.
 
I personally can't imagine cleaning a krag after a day's training with black powder and metal bullets. I suspect that using such a thing would be an absolute failure.
 
30-06 is still getting the job done wherever game is hunted. It does not get much press these days in the magazines because its old news.

Jack
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I have paid more attention since this thread started and note that my .30-06 and .308’s seem to get along just fine. At least if they do disagree it is done quietly without a sound escaping the gun safe.
 
There ain't many troubles that a man can't fix...

I thought JJ45 in post #50 was going to bring it out when he mentioned a couple of quotes from Jeff Cooper. Col. Whelen has his classic, timeless saying about the cartridge, but Mr. Cooper also had one, too, that I heard a long, long time ago. Mr. Cooper's daughter, Lindy Cooper Wisdom, wrote this poem using the famous line she heard from her dad from a long time past.

"Grandpa's Lesson"

Pappy took to drinkin' back when I was barely three.
Ma got pretty quiet, she was frettin' you could see.
So I was sent to Grandpa and he raised me up real good,
He taught me what I oughta and he taught me what I should

I learned a heap o' lessons from the yarns he liked to tell,
There's one I won't forget because I learned it 'speshly well.
There jist ain't many folk who live a peaceful, carefree life,
Along with all the good times there'll be lotsa grief and strife.

"But there ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix,
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

Grampa courted Grandma near the town of old Cheyenne,
Her daddy was cantankerous - a very greedy man.
He wouldn't give permission for a fancy wedding day,
'Till Grandpa paid a dowry - biggest ever people say.

"Her daddy softened up when Grandpa said that he could fix,
Him up with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."

Grandpa herded cattle down around Jalisco way,
Ended up behind some iron bars one dusty day.
Seems the local jefe craved my Grandpa's pinto mare,
Grandpa wouldn't sell her so he lit on out of there.

"Didn't take much doin' 'cept a couple special tricks,
Plus seven hundred dollars and his thirty ought six."

Then there was that Faro game near San Francisco Bay,
Grandpa's cards was smokin' hot and he took all one day.
He woke up nearly naked in a ditch next early morn,
With nothin' but his flannel shirt, and it was ripped and torn.

"Those others were professionals and they don't play for kicks,
He lost seven hundred dollars and his thirty ought six."

He begged some woolen trousers off the local storekeep there,
Who loaned him both a pony and a rifle on a dare.
He caught those thievin' cardsharks at another Faro game,
He got back all his property and also his good name.

"He left one bleedin' badly and another mostly lame,
My Grandpa's trusty rifle shoots just where you choose to aim."

Grandpa's slowin' down a bit and just the other night,
He handed me his rifle and a box sealed up real tight.
He fixed me with them pale grey eyes and this is what he said,
"You're awful young but steady too, and I will soon be dead."

I'll bet this here old rifle and this honest money too,
Will come in mighty handy just as readily for you.
There jist ain't many folk who lead a carefree peaceful life,
Along with times of happiness, there's always woe and strife.

"But...ain't many troubles that a man cain't fix,
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.

By Lindy Cooper Wisdom


I, too, have 3 "thirty ought sixes"...love 'em all.
 
More than a few new gun buyers read just enough gun / hunting magazines to get a distorted view. Not many magazines "on the stand" today have articles that promote the 308 or the 30-06. Many articles do promote newer rounds that are "better" than the "traditional" rounds that include the 30-06.

Hype does sell. Its all about the marketing. You know, "May the schwartz be with you".

Now lets look at reality.

To start with, consider that at least 95% of the people who are choosing a caliber while at a gun store do not and will never reload. As, such over the counter ammo is what really makes a difference between all of the otherwise good choices. Tell them to think both now and 20 years from now (resale value and/or to be handed down to a kid). Think of how many guns are out there chambered for something that has become nearly unobtainable.

For most rifle buyers in the category being discussed, hunting capabilities of the 30-06 and the 308 with factory ammo are essentially the same as far as the target is concerned. Some 30-06 guns will be slightly heavier. Recoil of both is near the max that an "average Joe" will consider acceptable. Both "just work".

Both of these rounds have a huge ammo selection / availability / cost advantage over other bolt guns.

Ammo supply and cost is almost as good for the 243 and 270. The 7-08 is marginal for optimal ammo availability. All three of these rounds have some real advantages for some hunters.

Some of the newer rounds may have adequate availability now, but will they in 20 years?

If a guy comes into a store looking at bolt guns and is willing to listen to the salesman, then my first suggestion would be to discuss ammo availability. Promote guns that will be easy to find ammo for at the only ammo supply store in a 60 miles radius while they are hunting in some remote location in ten years. Tell them to think of all of "hot" guns of 10 - 20 years ago that would now be nearly useless to them due to ammo supply.

Of the rounds I have mentioned, most will get the job done just fine. For general purpose hunting in the US, the 7-08 is probably the "best choice" by function and the "worst choice" by ammo availability. The 243 is really only something I would recommend where lower recoil is a priority. For someone anticipating longer ranges, the 270 is a great choice. And for anyone not wanting one of the above, they would do well to pick either the 308 or the 30-06 purely based on what ever sounds best to them.

Lots of other rounds actually have real hunting advantages in the US over the 308 / 30-06. However, these advantages (less recoil, flatter shooting, lower gun weight, less muzzle blast) are "nice things" that do not really translate into "higher percentages" for getting the job done. However, except for a few (243, 270, 7-08, 30-30), these advantages come at the cost of reduced ammo availability and significantly less assurance of future reasonable ammo availability.
 
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P Flados said:
More than a few new gun buyers read just enough gun / hunting magazines to get a distorted view. Not many magazines "on the stand" today have articles that promote the 308 or the 30-06. Many articles do promote newer rounds that are "better" than the "traditional" rounds that include the 30-06.

Hype does sell. Its all about the marketing. You know, "May the schwartz be with you".

Now lets look at reality.

To start with, consider that at least 95% of the people who are choosing a caliber while at a gun store do not and will never reload. As, such over the counter ammo is what really makes a difference between all of the otherwise good choices. Tell them to think both now and 20 years from now (resale value and/or to be handed down to a kid). Think of how many guns are out there chambered for something that has become nearly unobtainable.

For most rifle buyers in the category being discussed, hunting capabilities of the 30-06 and the 308 with factory ammo are essentially the same as far as the target is concerned. Some 30-06 guns will be slightly heavier. Recoil of both is near the max that an "average Joe" will consider acceptable. Both "just work".

Both of these rounds have a huge ammo selection / availability / cost advantage over other bolt guns.

Ammo supply and cost is almost as good for the 243 and 270. The 7-08 is marginal for optimal ammo availability. All three of these rounds have some real advantages for some hunters.

Some of the newer rounds may have adequate availability now, but will they in 20 years?

If a guy comes into a store looking at bolt guns and is willing to listen to the salesman, then my first suggestion would be to discuss ammo availability. Promote guns that will be easy to find ammo for at the only ammo supply store in a 60 miles radius while they are hunting in some remote location in ten years. Tell them to think of all of "hot" guns of 10 - 20 years ago that would now be nearly useless to them due to ammo supply.

Of the rounds I have mentioned, most will get the job done just fine. For general purpose hunting in the US, the 7-08 is probably the "best choice" by function and the "worst choice" by ammo availability. The 243 is really only something I would recommend where lower recoil is a priority. For someone anticipating longer ranges, the 270 is a great choice. And for anyone not wanting one of the above, they would do well to pick either the 308 or the 30-06 purely based on what ever sounds best to them.

Lots of other rounds actually have real hunting advantages in the US over the 308 / 30-06. However, these advantages (less recoil, flatter shooting, lower gun weight, less muzzle blast) are "nice things" that do not really translate into "higher percentages" for getting the job done. However, except for a few (243, 270, 7-08, 30-30), these advantages come at the cost of reduced ammo availability and significantly less assurance of future reasonable ammo availability.
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I quit reading those mags about 20 years ago because much of what I read conflicted with my own experience. I began to get the feeling that most of the articles were less than objective.

I have always been an '06 man but there are a lot of good cartridges...there are two cartridges that I kinda wish I had rifles chambered for, but don't, the 7mm-08 and .250 Savage.

Both are known for exceptional accuracy. With the right load/bullets, the short action , light recoiling 7mm08 will kill anything in N America. Again, with the right loads, the 250-3000 will do fine on medium game as well as any varmints.
 
I've written recently about my Maine woodchuck rifle, a .30-06 that I put together, using a Savage 110, after throwing away the old low-comb, "killer" stock that hurt every time I pulled the trigger. The new stock blank from Bishop was lovingly crafted to an epoxy-bedded, free-floated wonder-rifle. Being in High School those days meant that a high-powered scope was out of the question, so bought a 2.5X Weaver.

Three of us "late-teenagers" in the late 1950's reloaded '06, 125-grain "woodchuck" loads that we often shot prone, off a home-made, 1/2" copper pipe bipod that I carried in my back pocket. One year that I kept decent records, I averaged woodchuck kills at over 200 yards, one was at 450 yards, on the second shot.
 
More than a few new gun buyers read just enough gun / hunting magazines to get a distorted view. Not many magazines "on the stand" today have articles that promote the 308 or the 30-06. Many articles do promote newer rounds that are "better" than the "traditional" rounds that include the 30-06.
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This is kind of a segue here.

I don't know how many people will remember when winchester brought out their 'black talon' rifle round. The thing was incredible. it was a partition round, it's base core was steel, it had a copper wrap on the steel, and then a steel cap over it all. It was designed to go through anything and everything, and I suppose that it probably did. The fired specimens that they showed wouldn't mushroom like a traditional round, they'd just sort of bulge a bit. So, if you were actually shooting at a buffalo or using a 308-50 BMG at 5,000 fps, well, the thing should have held together and gone through. IIRC they sold for about 3X the price of a normal soft point.

They weren't deer rounds. There were a number of soft point bullets such as the core loct, hornady, federal, and even winchester's own soft point that were readily available, and everyone worked well for the goal, and would have worked just as well as the extreme hole puncher.

Well, the year that they were released, when deer season was near, walmart piled huge numbers of these costly and unnecessarily complicated things on the endcaps of their stores, thousands of boxes of them, probably millions of rounds company wide.

IIRC, they even had a version for .243 and would have done 30-30 if possible. I can only imagine how many millions of rounds they would have stacked up in just 6.5 creedmoor.
 
dahermit said:
Says who? Those are your personal comparisons. The reputation of the .270 was made on the 130 grain bullet. Any comparison of the 130 grain .270 bullet compared to the 150 grain .30-06 bullet is but a biased effort to show that the .270 is somehow "better".

Your categories of "Medium game" and "Large game" are completely arbitrary and thus meaningless...here in Michigan, the state considers deer to be"Large game" and many .270 shooters have not qualms about using the 130 .270 bullets on deer ("large game").
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The 130 gr. bullet was advertising hype - flatter shooting - in a time before scopes were the norm for hunting rifles.

Does it work? Sure does, with or without a scope.

But if you are going to take the shots that the .30-06 does well, you should use a bullet of the same SD - and that same SD .270 Win bullet will be considerably faster, flatter shooting, and lighter recoiling than the .30-06.

Physics.




Red
 
Omitting magnums: Include the .223 and 100-grain .243. Then figure most of the "deer cartridges" that are faster than a .30-30.

Two inches high at 100 is right at dead-on at 200. Five to seven inches low at 300.

I can't argue against the consensus that somewhere north of 80% of all whitetail deer are shot within 200 yards. For me it was around 96%, with one kill at 450 and one at 350.

If you know the trajectory and the distance, "flatter-shooting" is irrelevant.
 
I just ran some calculations that have a 26 inch drop for a 270 at 400 yards.

So if its 4 inches better (not sure it is) over an 06 that makes it flatter trajectory?

Technical yes.

does it make a difference? No.

In other words you need one of those 3500 - 4500 fps bullets to make a difference and they are not suited to deer!
 
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