Waco TWO?

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Most of society has changed thiers has not. A little family history of mine. 1 great grandmother was bought for $25.00 as mail order bride. Another great grandmother was got for 2 horses and a repeating rifle. My grandmothers were age13 and 15 when they were married, my mother was 16 when I was born. That is over the last 123 years in this country.

Most people consider simple arguments from tradition worthless, and rightfully so. Within that same 123 years in this country, it's been illegal for a black man to marry a white woman, women have been denied the right to vote, and if you dial it just a couple decades further back it was legal for one person to force another into slavery.

And those are just the big ones.

Are you arguing any of those were good things? I'd hope not. And don't go saying you weren't trying to justify the statutory rape of girls by FLDS members, because if that wasn't what you were trying to get at then there was no point in even making that post.
 
"IF" what is reported is true,then they should be arrested. My post was to show how society has changed outside of the world they created for themselves. I do not know what went on inside thier ranch and only what has been reported.
 
Danzig said:
Antipitas, are you agreeing that the government is right in any way to involve themselves in the marriage business?
When does reporting a Supreme Court opinion become this reporters opinion? You've been indoctrinated by way too many MSN sources!
My own personal belief is that what goes on between CONSENTING ADULTS is no one else's business.
Except when that something is marriage. Which is, afterall, a contract between two people. The Government does have an interest in maintaining the viability of contracts, does it not?

How I feel (or even how any of us feel) has no bearing upon what is currently the law. Read the opinion (which I conveniently linked, above) and get back to me.
JuanCarlos said:
I just figure that as long as their polygamy isn't actually affecting an issue the government should be concerned with (such as trying to claim multiple wives on taxes) I'm not sure the state should necessarily go out of their way to enforce that law.
From the Decision: At common law, the second marriage was always void, and from the earliest history of England polygamy has been treated as an ofence against society....

Marriage, while from its very nature a sacred obligation, is nevertheless, in most civilized nations, a civil contract, and usually regulated by law. Upon it society may be said to be built, and out of its fruits spring social relations and social obligations and duties, with which government is necessarily required to deal. In fact, according as monogamous or polygamous marriages are allowed, do we find the principles on which the government of the people, to a greater or less extent, rests. An exceptional colony of polygamists under an exceptional leadership may sometimes exist for a time without appearing to disturb the social condition of the people who surround it; but there cannot be a doubt that, unless restricted by some form of constitution, it is within the legitimate scope of the power of every civil government to determine whether polygamy or monogamy shall be the law of social life under its dominion.


So there you have it. Incorporation of English common law; The law of contracts; The stability of society.
 
Case falling apart?

First off, this incident illustrates the difference between state and federal raid tactics. Texas is to be credited with conducting the raid the without wanton disregard for casualties, that has characterized raids by fed agencies seeking to justify increasing their budgets.


Second, not to defend child abuse, but this case is starting to sound shaky. They can't locate the child who called authorities initially. They interviewed the man who was the featured pedophile in national media (in another state), only to release him quickly with no arrest. The second-largest lawsuit in US history may be likely, if he was named in error.:o

Mothers are being housed with the young girls at Fort Concho. The latest, all cell phones have been confiscated from the mothers, to prevent communication with the outside world. This sounds rather futile, one might expect the mothers to be separated from the children as well, to prevent them from undermining the upcoming court proceedings. So, must Texas officials keep children incommunicado for months or years to preserve the integrity of likely lengthy trials?

Latest reports have the mothers and children gathering outside singing hymns. Consider images of children being wrenched from mothers, being replaced by government "deprogrammers". These would be positively dynamite once they hit the media. I'd expect even mainstream religious opinion to rise up against this prospect.

Now, officials in AZ and UT, where polygamy has a history of more toleration, are starting to question the basis for the Texas raid. As others in this forum have suggested, if they can't prove the child abuse charges, and try to prosecute solely on the basis of illegal polygamy, that opens the issue of government prying into the lives of consenting adults.

To be critical of the government in this type of incident, is not to condone the actions of the religious sect. There are often situations in life where BOTH PARTIES are in the wrong. Is this one of them?

To embark on a raid of this magnitude, .gov had better have an absolutely airtight case. At this point, it looks far less than that. Have some overzealous social workers bit off much more than they can chew? :confused:
 
They don't need an airtight case in any state, they only need a reasonable assumption of child abuse.

"They can't locate the child who called authorities initially."

They've narrowed it down to 4 out of the group according to CNN this morning. I can understand why the caller is hesitant to step up and identify herself.

"Latest reports have the mothers and children gathering outside singing hymns. Consider images of children being wrenched from mothers, being replaced by government "deprogrammers"."

Oh the horror, singing hymns. :confused: As far as wrenching the children from their mothers, did you miss the part of the story about the authorities allowing the women to accompany the children? And what's with the deprogrammer talk? Are you a conspiracy theorist or a crystal ball gazer?

John
 
hammer4nc said:
try to prosecute solely on the basis of illegal polygamy, that opens the issue of government prying into the lives of consenting adults.
Did you skip over my post, immediately above yours?

Polygamy is illegal. Whatever else you may think, the Reynolds case has been upheld.
 
Re: Links

Penguin, I googled "flds", this morning, got thousands of hits. Here's one of the latest, with key points highlighted.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8917397
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Seeks to cut off contact with outside
Judge: Seize cell phones from polygamous sect's women, children
By Brooke Adams and Christopher Smart
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/14/2008 06:44:48 AM MDT


SAN ANGELO, Texas - The judge overseeing a massive investigation into alleged child abuse within a polygamous sect on Sunday ordered law officers to confiscate electronic devices from women and children in state custody at two shelters, cutting off their contact with family.
The order, signed Sunday morning by 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, came after someone used a cell phone to send out images of living conditions at one shelter and to speak with a newspaper reporter.
State troopers confiscated at least one box full of cell phones, chargers and other devices, said Marissa Gonzales, a spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services.
The search continued late into the afternoon. More than a dozen troopers were seen leaving a building being used to house boys at Fort Concho, and one used a metal detector to sweep its porch.
Dozens of boys stood outside the building during the search. Later, they gathered on the parade grounds at the historic military fort and sang songs from what appeared to be a hymnal. At one point the boys, who are being kept in separate quarters from the women and younger children, formed a line and faced a group of FLDS women and children about 50 yards across the grassy field. The boys and the women then sang. It lasted for nearly 90 minutes.
Earlier in the day, the women and children were allowed to hold church services, Gonzales said.
Texas authorities raided the YFZ Ranch, owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, on April 3 after a 16-year-old girl contacted a family violence shelter and said she was being physically and sexually abused.
Over four days, authorities removed 416 children from the ranch, located in Eldorado and named after the FLDS hymn 'Yearning for Zion.' They allowed 139 women to stay with the children.
Authorities still have not located the girl, but continue to say they believe she is among the children in state custody. This weekend, the Texas Department of Public Safety acknowledged it may have named the wrong man in the original search and arrest warrant that triggered the raid of the FLDS enclave.
Walther has set a scheduling hearing for Monday morning to decide how to handle the massive child custody case. Legal notices published online by the Eldorado Success list names of children and parents, who are advised they are being sued by the state of Texas and should get attorneys. The newspaper will print the notice in its Wednesday edition, which will start a clock ticking that gives the parents until about mid-May to file court papers in response to the state action.
Attorneys for the children told the judge this weekend that cell phones needed to be removed to prevent 'improper communication, tampering with witnesses and interference with the attorney-client relationship.'
Gonzales was unsure whether the women had access to other telephones at the shelters.
Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney hired to represent the FLDS families, said that the authorities had told the women to give up their cell phones or they would be asked to leave.
He challenged state authorities running the shelters to let the media inside to independently verify the living conditions.
"If the conditions at the compound are as good as they say they are, then let the ladies come out and talk to the media," said Parker, who is serving as a spokesman for the FLDS families. "It's as simple as that."
Parker was set to arrive in San Angelo Sunday night to act as a spokesman for the FLDS families.
On Friday, Kevin Dinnin of Baptist Child and Family Services, which has helped with sheltering of the woman and children, said every effort is being made to keep them comfortable. Marleigh Meisner, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, said Friday none of the women were interested in speaking to the media.
However, five women spoke with the Salt Lake City-based Deseret News and said conditions in the shelter are crowded and the children are frightened.
Stephen Smith, an internal medicine physician in San Angelo and part of the medical team at Fort Concho, said the same thing, adding that women and children are asking to go home.
State officials have said that no one, including the children's fathers, will be allowed to see them before Thursday's custody hearing.

Also on Sunday, the San Angelo City Council held a special session to authorized continued use of housing and other services for the relocated FLDS members, said City Councilman Dwain Morrison.
The city initially had made the facilities available to the state for 10 days. That time frame was about to expire, Morrison said.
'We voted to continue what we had started,' he said, noting that the new proclamation is open-ended and will not expire.
San Angelo has petitioned the state for reimbursement of $60,000 a day for the housing and other service costs. While the state has yet to act on the emergency request, Mayor J. W. Lown said he has been assured by Texas officials that his town 'will be made whole.'

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Additional comment: $60k per day($1.8M per month), just for room/board; doesn't include lawyer fees! If I understand this correctly, each of the 400+ children requires their own individual lawyer, what do you figger that will cost?
 
I missed that part where the case seems to be falling apart. It all looks like pretty much standard procedure to me. Of course the fathers are not allowed to see the daughters since I am sure many of them are going to be charged with statutory rape of their daughters.

It also makes perfect sense that the children have been cut off from cell conversations with the very people that are going to be charged so as to prevent coaching and alibi creating.

In cases like this it is very hard to separate the children from the events. They still feel connected to their parents and still feel that the lewd acts are the way of god and that they are being attacked by an evil outside world. Especially the younger ones.

It is also difficult with boys in situations like this because they are being removed from a situation where they are being allowed to be sexual and form improper bonds with the women of the group.
 
Antipitas,

What's your point? Philadelphia lawyering? I always like the posts that begin with a variant of "it doesn't matter what you or I think". As if to disregard totally, public opinion as a facet of practical law enforcement.

In my state, cohabitation without marriage is illegal. You can quote letter of the law all you want, there is quite a gap between that, and the spirit of the law, as currently practiced. It revolves around discretion.

If you want to try to prove the point that strict enforcement of anti-polygamy laws is practical, or even better morally adviseable, knock yourself out. Please include a dissertation on theory and practice for NC's anti-cohabitation law while you're at it. I can serve up any number of non-enforced laws for you to knock down too, though I don't see the relevance to this thread.:rolleyes:
 
Penguin said:
I missed that part where the case seems to be falling apart. It all looks like pretty much standard procedure to me.

"seems to be falling apart", was my editorial opinion, based primarily on non-identification of key witness, and non-arrest of key suspect...pretty major liabilities, wouldn't you agree! "Standard procedure"? you've got to be kidding! This case is anything but standard, though you're welcome to argue that point if you wish.;)
 
based primarily on non-identification of key witness, and non-arrest of key suspect...pretty major liabilities, wouldn't you agree
Not really. In cases like this there is a lot of shuffling and misdirection before all relevant information is released. There are going to be multiple charges against multiple people and the vast majority of evidence will be withheld from the media until all parties have representation and the cases are in motion.
 
hammer4nc said:
...that opens the issue of government prying into the lives of consenting adults.
My point being rather simple: The government already has the necessary authority to meddle in this type of affair (no pun intended)... For those who think that everything that consenting adults do is lawful.

As far as I know, no one has been charged with the "crime" of polygamy/bigamy. What appears to be happening, is the greater charges of sexual abuse of minors and related conspiracies. So that alone knocks down your argument of "consenting adults." In case you forgot, government has the necessary authority to "meddle" in that area, also.

Be that as it may, I brought up the Reynolds decision to knock down the argument that any/all acts, by people, can hide behind the cloak of religion. The Reynolds Court says they can't.
 
DNA testing

A lot of the reports from the Texas authorities indicate there will be lots and lots of DNA testing going on. Unless you are willing to deny DNA as proof of who fathered who you are going to see the evidences required to prove case after case.

Meanwhile why has there been so little commentary about this group and their abuse of the welfare system. Perhaps that is going to get more attention as the case continues.
 
It is not about polygamy. It is about a bunch of sick old geezers brainwashing females for generations in order to get the pants off girls that are 12-15 years old. This kind of trash is illegal in every state of the US.
 
Of course the fathers are not allowed to see the daughters since I am sure many of them are going to be charged with statutory rape of their daughters.

I think "daughters" may have been used by mistake, since I have seen no mention of incest in the press.
 
I think "daughters" may have been used by mistake, since I have seen no mention of incest in the press.
The fathers will be charges as accessories at the very least. Also, no incest has been mentioned yet but in these cases it is quite common. Don't be surprised when it raises it's head.
 
I have avoided making any judgements in this case until now. However, the more I learn about this case, it makes me angry.

It is now believed by the authorities that the call claiming sexual abuse is a hoax. Though the authorities have removed over 400 children from their families, they have yet to speak to this supposed caller.

Now, I say to you... how would you feel if someone called to claim you were sexually abusing your children and then the authorities came and took your children even though they could not speak to or locate the caller again.

In America, we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Clearly, they have got it backwards in Texas.

I hope that this situation is resolved soon. If they cannot locate this supposed caller, they should return the children to their families immediately.
 
I am troubled by what I have read about the legal process in this case. First, a minor made a telephone complaint about abuse and a search warrant was obtained.

Salt Lake Tribune: The Texas warrants, provided by the San Angelo Standard newspaper, allow police to arrest Barlow and seize records of his alleged marriage to the girl and records of a baby girl he may have fathered with the teenager. The baby is believed to be 8 months old, the warrant says. Barlow and the teenager are the only people named in the warrant. It's unclear how an investigation into their relationship lead to the removal of 52 other girls.

Neither the girl who alleged abuse or her abuser were found. Nevertheless, the search was widened and other children were taken into state custody.

Houston Chronicle: After entering the Yearning for Zion Ranch, a community being built by the church a few miles from the small town of Eldorado in Schleicher County, authorities found minor girls who were pregnant or caring for babies — enough of them to justify taking all the compound's children into state custody, the affidavit states.

The Texas authorities started on a reasonable basis, but it appears they may have gone further on a fishing expedition to support preconcieved notions.

Deseret News: "There is that sweeping statement that they've concluded as a matter of law that if you're a child in a polygamous family, that alone means you're abused," (Utah Attorney General) Shurtleff said. "We've never concluded that here."
 
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