Waco TWO?

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Ok, Say my daughter goes to the school councilor. She Ask for birth control. She is taken from the school and See's a doctor and receives the same. I as the parent am never informed. Is this child abuse, condoning sexual behavior of a minor?
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Who would take her from the school?

Even if they did I do not see the connection. Your daughter is having sex and wants to prevent pregnancy. She is then provided the means to protect herself (most likely a condom). Would you rather she become pregnant or catch an STD?
 
read your own posting

"They are making these kids life hell ! They are being herded like cattle and sent to the stock pens. People are not stock" homefires

And then explain where you came up with the concept of being herded and sent to the stock pens. That is not poetic license it just pure uncorroborated fabrications bent of making these people victums rather than the victimizers.
 
It saddens me to see so many people grasping for reasons to excuse the fanatics in this case and condemn the authorities that are trying to protect children from harm.
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There is a difference between not sharing your apparent conviction of guilt and "grasping for reasons to excuse the fanatics." I believe at least some of the FLDS men in Texas are probably guilty of heinous crimes. But I prefer legal due process and a conviction in court rather than just deciding guilt because the alleged crimes are reprehensible.

Have you forgotten about the informant they've had on the inside for a number of years? I get the feeling they haven't shown their entire hand yet when it comes to what they know.
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I have previously stated that I believe there is probably more to this case than has been publicized. However, I am surprised by how little hard evidence has been presented to secure the warrants and court orders to date.
 
I believe at least some of the FLDS men in Texas are probably guilty of heinous crimes. But I prefer legal due process and a conviction in court before conclusively deciding guilt.
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Ah, so you would rather the children be left in the environment of probable abuse until a lengthy trial can take place. Allowing them to be abused further, tutored and coached on how to deceive a jury, and maybe even be taken with the abusers when they decide death is preferable to prosecution. :confused:
 
They have not found the subject that made the call.
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Nor will they ever. It's looking like it was made up out of whole cloth in order to secure the warrant used to raid the compound.

The 56 year old supposed husband of the missing 16 year-old tipster has proven that he hasn't been to Texas in at least 30 years. Dale Barlow, since that's the most common name amongst the men in this sect it's beginning to sound kind shakey.

Maybe it was actually John Smith, or Rusty Shackelford.
 
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Ah, so you would rather the children be left in the environment of probable abuse until a lengthy trial can take place.
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I want the situation to be properly resolved under the law, whatever the result may be, rather than an emotional reaction.
 
I want the situation to be properly resolved under the law, whatever the result may be, rather than an emotional reaction.
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It is being resolved under the law. The mothers and the children are getting due process via the hearing tomorrow. I just wonder if the judge will allow the mothers to continue refusing to use their last names.

The magnitude of this case is what's setting people off, but the reality is that the magnitude is the only unique thing about it.
 
Well, I really didn't want to get in on this one, but I can't stand it any longer.

First let me say that I do not believe in any type of child abuse in any form. If they are truly abusing these children, then they need to be punished. Now, putting the "alleged" abuse aside, there are alot of things going on here that should be stopped immediately.

According to Texas State Law, a girl as young as 14 can be legally married. And isn't it up to her who she marries? So what if he's 14 or 40? It may seem creepy to some, but it is her choice. And we are supposed to have freedom of religion here in this country. Just because some people do not agree with what they teach, they are free to be persecuted at will, and their constitutional rights trampled on? Who's next? Baptists? Catholics? Jews? Where does it end? If the polygamy is illegal, prosecute them for that. How can you take children not even named in the original allegations? And WHY doesn't anyone seem to see whats wrong with this picture?

People are missing the point here. There is a supposed allegation of abuse by ONE specific girl, aimed at ONE specific man. The man has been cleared, and the girl has yet to be found. (If she even exists, and was not invented by CPS or others to get their foot in the door)

So, because one person accuses another person, it gives them the right to assume ALL children anywhere NEAR are automatically abused, and they take them all? That is no different than one person in your neighborhood claiming abuse, so they round up all the children in the neighborhood, because they MIGHT be abused, including yours? How is this even REMOTELY SANE, or LEGAL? You may not agree with their lifestyle, but there has to be PROOF.

This is America! Prove abuse, then burn the abusers. Don't destroy an entire culture just because you don't agree with them. If certain elements are abusing children, by all means, go after them with everything you've got, but you can't round up innocent children and people that weren't even named in the original allegation! Use your heads!

And this head CPS lady is a joke. Saying kids are more likely to speak freely when the parents aren't around. What she means is that these innocent children can be more easily coerced and guided into saying what THEY want them to say, without anyone around to stop them. The real abuse to these children is happening now, subjecting them to these terrifying conditions! Check the children medically, and if no sexual abuse is present, LET THEM GO! Every single child questioned should have a court official or attorney present before any questions can be asked by ANYONE!

My God people, this is a terrible, horrible, abuse of power by these government agencies, and no one seems to see it or care. Say what you want, but mark my words, if they get away with this unconstitutional treatment of these people, it will be the first step in destroying the rights of all citizens and running roughshod over us all, at any time they want, for any reason.

Remember the important thing here. ONE person, whom they have yet to even FIND, made a specific allegation against ONE other NAMED person. How does that give them the right to raid their compound and round up everyone? Doesn't sound too much different than other "roundups" that this government has participated in in the past.....
 
According to Texas State Law, a girl as young as 14 can be legally married. And isn't it up to her who she marries? So what if he's 14 or 40?
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First off, parents can only consent to a marriage of a child as young as sixteen in Texas. Children younger than 16 must have judicial approval to get legally married, not parental consent. Of course, that's only for legal marriage, which the underage marriages in question were not anyway.

But the age of sexual consent in Texas is seventeen, so if they weren't legally married then you have that to deal with. Being within three years of age of the victim (which in many cases was likely not the case...so it DOES matter if he's 14 or 40) is a defense to this, but it's an affirmative defense...so regardless every last girl there who has a child who can be shown mathematically to have been born before they were about seventeen plus six months or so is evidence of a rape, and the father of that child has to defend himself against that charge.

So, right of the bat your post is just filled with lose and fail.

It may seem creepy to some, but it is her choice. And we are supposed to have freedom of religion here in this country. Just because some people do not agree with what they teach, they are free to be persecuted at will, and their constitutional rights trampled on? Who's next? Baptists? Catholics? Jews? Where does it end? If the polygamy is illegal, prosecute them for that. How can you take children not even named in the original allegations? And WHY doesn't anyone seem to see whats wrong with this picture?
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The question is how much of a "choice" it really is. For a child who cannot realistically make it out in the world on their own, familial pressure is a bit stronger than you might think. And that's before you get into the fact that familial pressure in large part influences religious affiliation of young children as well...would these same girls, raised in a Catholic home, still follow the FLDS faith? Unlikely.

How many adults do you know who have changed religion since they left home, or abandoned it altogether? Or simply don't practice or give it much thought at all? I know plenty. For a Catholic or a Baptist, this may mean having a few prayers memorized, partying a little less hardy in high school, and a lot of "wasted" Sunday mornings. For a FLDS girl who decides maybe this wasn't for her, it means she may have multiple kids (before even reaching 18) from her 40-year-old "husband," who was never legally married to her anyway.

Suddenly I'm starting to understand why we have statutory rape laws, and why there is an established age of consent below which parents can't marry off their children (which, again, is 16 and not 14 as you claim). Are you?

Check the children medically, and if no sexual abuse is present, LET THEM GO!
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Every single girl there under 17 (or closer to 18) with a child is evidence of sexual abuse. And the number of such girls who can be shown to have (or have had...a 20-year-old with a 4-year-old kid is also the same evidence) is evidence of widespread and openly accepted sexual abuse within the entire group...and thus evidence that every last child there is in danger of the same abuse within that compound.
 
Derius_T you obviously have a very low opinon of Child welfare workers, that they would "indoctrinate" a child into saying things against their parents.

Why would someone do that? Would the whole team of Counselors (and I assume there is multiple Social Workers invovlved in this case) agree to

be more easily coerced and guided into saying what THEY want them to say, without anyone around to stop them. The real abuse to these children is happening now, subjecting them to these terrifying conditions!
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I work in the Criminal Justice system, have for a number of years, and dealt with Social Services intensively, we really dont have the time (or the desire) to have kids make up stories, the truth is scary enough without US having to invent it.
 
Derius_T you obviously have a very low opinon of Child welfare workers
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Some people are so wrapped up in their anti-establishment sentiments or their religion that they refuse to let go of it and feel that the smallest perceived slight is a massive attack on their entire belief system. Some of these people are so deeply entwined in this mentality that even the safety of a child does not outweigh their need to become defensive and rally to the aid of those they see as akin to themselves. They will start rationalizing, twisting, emotionalizing, and downright editorializing every aspect they can to make the people doing the right thing seem wrong. They even go as far as to try and demonize everyone and anything that they see as a threat to their belief.
 
Also, just so we get this clear to anybody else who feels like chiming in:

Age to marry with parental consent in Texas is sixteen. Want cites?

Here you go, straight from the great State of Texas.

§ 2.009. ISSUANCE OF LICENSE. ... the county clerk may not issue a license
if either applicant:
...
(3) is under 16 years of age and has not been granted a
court order as provided by Section 2.103;
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Obviously there's much, much more to it but this particular point is quite clear. You must be 16 to get legally married even with parental consent (18 without). 14 doesn't cut it unless you have a court order.

And age of consent for sex in Texas is 17. Need a cite on that, too?

Here you go, again straight from Texas.


21.11. INDECENCY WITH A CHILD. (a) A person commits
an offense if, with a child younger than 17 years and not the
person's spouse, whether the child is of the same or opposite sex,
the person:
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Obviously, again, there's more but this point is clear. And I'm going to go ahead and assume that when they say "spouse" they mean in the legal sense. So all those spiritual marriages to girls under 16 without court orders? Not going to cut it at your trial. Note again that being within 3 years of the victim is a defense, just for sake of completeness.


Every time another person comes in and makes a false claim as to the ages of consent in Texas, especially after it has already been established in the thread, I actively do a facepalm. Seriously, get off my internets.
 
Okay, so the texas code I read was appearently outdated, as it clearly states 14 with parental consent or judicial approval.

Now, as I said, if they are LEGALLY married, then fine. If not LEGALLY married, (wether the age is 14 or 16 doesn't really matter) then the adults need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That is not what I am aguing.


The PROBLEM here, is that they rounded up over 400 kids, based on the allegations of one. That is the illegal thing here. That is NO DIFFERENT, than say, CPS gets called to my house for allegations of abuse....then they come over and take YOUR KIDS, because you live right next door to me, and your kid MIGHT have been abused, or in danger of future abuse. THAT is the BS.

They need to have a doctor check those kids, and if no evidence of abuse is present, then release them immediately. Period.

And yes. I do believe that while the vast majority of CPS workers are honest, decent people, with childrens welfare in mind, there are some that are not, and use their position to do whatever the hell they want. I know of instances where honest, innocent people's lives were made total living hell by CPS, with absolutely NO justification. It happens. They have no checks and balances when it comes to CPS.

So it seems even slightly okay to you that they rounded up over 400 kids, in a full scale raid, complete with riot gear, automatic weapons, and APC's, for one anonymous call? Doesn't seem like a very short time to mobilize that type of assualt? And for one single anonymous phone call? And the man who was named as the abuser in that call hadn't been to that place in 3 years?

There's alot more to this. The problem with me is the way they bussed out all the kids. If there is abuse, as I said before, there is no law strict enough to fry the perverts, but to take all these other kids and hold them, away from their parents, with no direct evidence of abuse is wrong. Nothing but a governmental abuse of power. Another we can do anything we want, if we do it for the right reasons scenario.....
 
The PROBLEM here, is that they rounded up over 400 kids, based on the allegations of one. That is the illegal thing here. That is NO DIFFERENT, than say, CPS gets called to my house for allegations of abuse....then they come over and take YOUR KIDS, because you live right next door to me, and your kid MIGHT have been abused, or in danger of future abuse. THAT is the BS.
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Group communal homes are different than adjacent homes in a normal residential neighborhood. Especially since the abuse in question stems form the culture/religious beliefs of the group that established the communal home. As for the possibility of future abuse, if you rape your daughter I think it's reasonable to take your other daughter, and probably your son, away as well. The likelihood of you assaulting them as well is high enough to justify it. In the context of a group communal home whose members (allegedly) facilitate such abuse, I'd say taking all the children from the compound is not entirely unreasonable. While not entirely analogous, the two situations are not entirely different either. At least taking them temporarily, while the investigation is underway.

Also, are you sure they were rounded up solely on the allegations of one? That there were no ongoing investigations beforehand? Because you'd have to have some serious insider information to know that, considering that at this point even press accounts seem to suggest otherwise.

They need to have a doctor check those kids, and if no evidence of abuse is present, then release them immediately. Period.
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Well, again, the mere presence of many of the children, given the age of the mothers, is probably (direct, given age of consent and basic biology) evidence of abuse. And, again, the overall prevalence of this evidence is probably evidence that the abuse is widespread and accepted within the group communal home. Seems like ample justification to remove the children from the home, at least temporarily while the investigation continues.

So it seems even slightly okay to you that they rounded up over 400 kids, in a full scale raid, complete with riot gear, automatic weapons, and APC's, for one anonymous call? Doesn't seem like a very short time to mobilize that type of assualt?
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Also, this is not a short time to mobilize such an assault. I'd hope that, in the event of a terrorist attack or hostage situation, that they'd be able to mobilize such an assault fairly quickly. Like, within hours.

EDIT: This is, of course, assuming that civilian law enforcement having such equipment (APCs, automatic weapons, etc.) is a desirable thing in the first place...but that's a topic for another thread. As it is, they do have such equipment and not being able to deploy it rapidly on little to no notice would defeat the entire purpose of having it.


Other EDIT:

Okay, so the texas code I read was appearently outdated, as it clearly states 14 with parental consent or judicial approval.
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Ah, a little googling and I managed to find a cite claiming the same (came up as the number two hit for a search of "age marriage texas"...though the correct info was provided in the top hit). Next time I recommend sticking to primary sources for such things (usually any reliable secondary source will have a cite that is easily followed). Or, you know, you could have simply read the thread...this was covered before.
 
A couple things to keep in mind is that the mothers refer to all the children as their own, and the mothers refuse to give last names. Authorities have no way of knowing of who belongs to who and who goes where. In a FUBAR situation like that, which the authorities did not create, pulling all the children out and sorting things out is just about the only way of preventing the kind of abuse that they reasonably could believe was occurring.
 
I see this whole thing a major bag of worms.

There is just to many "What Ifs"




Group communal homes are different than adjacent homes in a normal residential neighborhood. Especially since the abuse in question stems form the culture/religious beliefs of the group that established the communal home.
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So they are Communist! That is not against the law. There are other church groups out there that could be classed a Comuminst!

Well, again, the mere presence of many of the children, given the age of the mothers, is probably (direct, given age of consent and basic biology) evidence of abuse. And, again, the overall prevalence of this evidence is probably evidence that the abuse is widespread and accepted within the group communal home.
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What proof do they have that the abuse is in total? What proof do they have about the other Male members. I keep hearing about Incest and That is not the issue. Young girls coheirs into marriage?

Again I don't condone or support anyone that would do bad things to kids, I just want to know what they based the actions on!

There has to be more to the story then we are hearing or the State has gone way over the TOP!

Don't beat up the Messenger! Just my thoughts and wonders!
 
Group communal homes are different than adjacent homes in a normal residential neighborhood. Especially since the abuse in question stems form the culture/religious beliefs of the group that established the communal home.
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So they are Communist! That is not against the law. There are other church groups out there that could be classed a Comuminst!
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My statement had nothing to do with big-C communism. I'm not even among the many here who use that as a boogeyman. I don't care in the slightest if every last member of the church is a follower of Marx.

I'm just talking about plain old communal and semi-communal living arrangements...which are absolutely different than "regular" neighborhoods. To put it simply, a regular suburban (or urban, or rural) neighborhood is not particularly analogous to the living arrangement and relationships between "neighbors" on this ranch.

What proof do they have that the abuse is in total? What proof do they have about the other Male members.
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They're probably gathering that evidence as we speak. Nobody's in prison yet, and as far as I know none of the parents have permanently lost custody of their kids yet. They've been separated from their kids due to suspicion of abuse temporarily pending investigation...no more.

As for proof, you could simply figure out what percentage of girls there had conceived children at ages below Texas's age of consent. It's difficult, and the investigation is taking longer than it should, because the members aren't co-operating and records haven't been kept in the usual manner. But if you can show that (just a number off the top of my head) 40% of these girls had gotten pregnant before the age of 17 (age of consent in Texas) would you accept that as proof of widespread sexual abuse?

Because this is the exact investigation that is going on right now. (EDIT: At least part of it.)


More to the point, what would you accept as proof anyway? Anything? Or are you just into the usual anti-government rambling? Most here know I'm one of the first to jump in and accuse the police and authorities of abusing their power...I'm just not seeing it in this case.
 
OK Homefires

I guess it is time for all of us to face the facts: the government officials in Texas are involved in a gigantic conspiracy against these people. Everything is complete fabrication. The State of Texas is involved in a social engineering project to eliminate the practice of religion. The failure of the State to convict the church members before they terrorized all the children is proof there is no evidence in the case. :rolleyes:

Apparently you have no faith in the criminal justice system. You are willing to give the sect member a free pass becasue they wish to proclaim its a matter or religion.

Sometime even the most casual of observations reveals the abnormality of a situation. Dozens of teens with child or pregnant indicates more than coincidence. A substantial difference in the compounds ratio of boy or young men to teen or young females while the ratio of older adult males to teen females is extremely high. While not conclusive of anything it certainly brings questions to mind.
 
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