Waco TWO?

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1.) As some have said, this is all part of an investigation that has been a long time building evidence.

2.) It would seem obvious that moving that many people over such a relatively short length of time requires a lot of logistics; i.e., a plan that's been in place for some time.

3.) The people removed from the YFZ ranch were removed together and have remained together among their own for the most part. If they are in any kind of custody (they are being called guests by the local media) it's intended to be protective custody.

4.) The representatives of Texas' Child Protective Services (CPS) have publicly stated that they have had "full cooperation" from residents of the ranch and, by all indications, it has been a totally peaceful process.

5.) For the most part the children have remained with their mothers. Many of the children being protected by the state are, in fact, mothers of other of the children being protected.

I am as quick as anyone to criticize my government for overstepping its bounds...

But, sometimes, government works the way it's supposed to.

Just my .02

Will
 
I feel a man marrying two women is a whole lot more on the right side then a man marrying a other man! Or a women to another!
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I fail to see the relevance. I'd also say that all three should probably be fine as long as we're talking about consenting adults.


Interesting you bring this up, though, because while you hear a lot about "polygamist compound" and "polygamist sect," you really don't see the government trying to hard to crack down the the polygamy aspect of the church and its followers. While you constantly hear Warren Jeffs referred to as a polygamist, that's not what he was arrested and convicted for; the government (at least lately) hasn't been cracking down until they start marrying little girls.

Which, unfortunately, seems to be one of the pitfalls of polygamy in general. Wives become a more scarce resource, and one result seems to be the tendency to want to lay claim on them as early as possible. Polygamy as an abstract concept (one consenting adult being married to multiple other consenting adults, all of whom enter into this arrangement willingly and knowingly) is fine by me. However, in practice it either doesn't work that way at all (yay for girls pressured into underage incestuous marriages!) or it can lead to a host of other issues.

But then we may be delving farther into sociology than is appropriate here.

I hope they locate the girl that made the calls.
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Me too. I also hope that none of the other children there wind up in arranged marriages with older men while underage as well. And that none of their children do. But given recent history and what's known about the FLDS church, I'm not as hopeful as I'd like to be.
 
Juan, I was just trying to make a point of what society will tolerate and not!
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You made no such point, though. At the moment it would seem to me that society isn't tolerant of polygamy or homosexual marriage. At least based on the laws and initiatives, many passed by popular vote, across the country. However, I'd also suggest that acceptance for some form of gay "marriage" (possibly under another name) may be trending up, while acceptance of polygamy (Big Love aside) is either flat or trending down. Seeing polygamy associated with underage girls pressured into incestuous marriages isn't helping, either.

I suppose you made a point of what you would tolerate. But you are not society as a whole.


EDIT: Also, the more I talk about it here, the less I'm seeing any real parallels to raid in Waco. And I didn't see much to begin with.
 
Zounds! I'm actually agreeing with JuanCarlos on something! It's too bad, though that facts, such as the REAL legal age for marriage in Texas had to be brought up, when kjm's verbose, yet patently incorrect post was so entertaining! :cool:
 
Some girls from this sect were interviewed on Australian TV (It was an American sourced show).

The sect seemed to apply a very high level of pressure upon adolescents to secure conformity.

This is not just a case of freedom of religion and I believe it needs thorough investigation by the authorities.
 
I find one religion just as preposterous as the other, but have little tolerance for the ones that are little more than a means for a bunch of lechers to manipulate the weak minded.
 
The mid-90's in NC (Wilmington IIRC) had some pretty serious charges by children against adults in a child care center. It was sensational and eventuated in the destruction of numerous adults. After all the hoopla and legal actions and media sensationalism and destruction of many a reputation, the authorities eventually 'fess up that the kids made the whole thing up. No abuse took place. The kids started with a few charges and it expanded from there with more interest shown by the system.

I hope TX authorities had other evidence or charges than that of one kid.
 
Some girls from this sect were interviewed on Australian TV (It was an American sourced show).

The sect seemed to apply a very high level of pressure upon adolescents to secure conformity.

This is not just a case of freedom of religion and I believe it needs thorough investigation by the authorities.
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Oh, I'm sure the pressure starts well before adolescence. In most cases, you're talking about kids that have never known anything else than their current situation...and who have no real other options. It's ridiculously easy to maintain conformity on kids in a situation like that, especially if you do everything you can to sequester them from the outside world. Which, of course, is a large part of the reason that most states set a minimum age below which even parents can't even sign off on a marriage...because below that age it's not as though the child is necessarily meaningfully consenting. They simply have no option.

By 16 or 17, however, a person can (in theory) at least try to break off on their own as an emancipated minor and have a shot at success. I say this as a former emancipated minor myself, and having known a few others.

The mid-90's in NC (Wilmington IIRC) had some pretty serious charges by children against adults in a child care center. It was sensational and eventuated in the destruction of numerous adults. After all the hoopla and legal actions and media sensationalism and destruction of many a reputation, the authorities eventually 'fess up that the kids made the whole thing up. No abuse took place. The kids started with a few charges and it expanded from there with more interest shown by the system.

I hope TX authorities had other evidence or charges than that of one kid.
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Had the previous manager of the child care center already been convicted in a court of law for accessory to rape for performing the exact same kind of acts that the child was alleging? And had no fundamental policies of the child care center changed since?

EDIT: I'm not saying that things like what you mention don't happen. Of course they do. I'd just suggest that the situation with the FLDS church isn't particularly analogous.
 
I referred to the Wilmington episode because it eventually was demonstrated to have been a fraud in which even law enforcement was suckered. Those who pay attention to the news know NC has systemic problems with its judicial system (e.g. Nifong). I would expect TX to do a better job. My reference to Wilmington was merely cautionary.
 
Juan Carlos , I agree entirely with your comments on my post.

What we are dealing with in some sects is nothing short of a form of slavery with invisible bonds, where they are institutionalised by a trinity fear- fear of the outside world, fear of the sect leader and fear of hell- with only compliance with the sect leaders every wish saving them from hell.

This type of thing can in no way be defended under the umbrella of Freedom of Religion.
 
Oh yeah...that's right, here we go again, the evil-government-agents burned the peace-loving Davidians to death..:rolleyes:

Waco was a tragedy, but I'm tired of hearing Davidian-Supporters spout off about Waco, as if the govt. was responsible for the people inside perishing.

I have personally heard the audio tapes from inside the compound, and listened to Koresh ask someone else if there was any more kerosene, and if not to pour out the rest of the gasoline down the hallway..

So...tell me again "WHO" burned them to death?

And..the agents began taking fire as they began to get out of the cattle car they used to roll up and execute a lawful warrant.

And Koresh and his supporters had hundreds of assault rifles, including a .50 cal barrett. I supposed they were all for hunting rabbits on the property.

Koresh had mother's of some of the young children 13, 14, and 15 drop their girls off at motels in Bellmead (near Waco) where Koresh was waiting for them, to take their virginity...how warped is that?

The children did not deserve to die in Waco, but the adults in that compound were responsible for their own actions..

If they were just a religious-community, like the Amish, that's one thing, but the rest of their warped ideals are just plain wrong..


QUOTE FROM "KJM":

The Branch Davidians had similar accusations and yes- they were perfectly legal in marrying 14 year olds to 40 and 50 year olds in Texas. They did not have a meth lab as accused on the warrant, and were not committing any known violations of gun laws.

So in this case- the kids weren't burned to death by the Federal Government so that's good. However, there has been a disruption in their families and nothing can prevent them from returning to their compound in three or four years, maybe earlier when the State realizes that they had nothing really legal on them to exercise this action. Then when the fake mormons sue the county, they'll probably win and build another compound elsewhere.
 
I referred to the Wilmington episode because it eventually was demonstrated to have been a fraud in which even law enforcement was suckered. Those who pay attention to the news know NC has systemic problems with its judicial system (e.g. Nifong). I would expect TX to do a better job. My reference to Wilmington was merely cautionary.
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The difference between NC and most states is that we eventually figure it out and make necessary corrections. Most other states are too dumb to realize it ever happened.
 
hundreds of assault rifles, including a .50 cal barrett. I supposed they were all for hunting rabbits on the property
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You really have to watch out for folks who have more guns than they need for hunting. :rolleyes:
 
More guns than they need (an arguable point, I'll give you that)...

But, as many guns as there were, combined with hand grenades, explosives, weapons modified illegally to full-auto, .50 cal rifles, combined with a religious fanatic who called himself "YAHWEH" and the second coming of Christ, who took child brides as young as 13 and had sex with them, then took the children's mothers away from their husbands and took them for his own wives, forbidding the husbands to have any further relations with their wives, mothers instructed to give out corporal punishment to babies in diapers until their bottoms bled...

I think there was plenty of need for concern about this cult...
 
Nevertheless, thankfully Janet Reno and the BATF were NOT involved.
It could have been worse. I guess I will wait for more (f)actual news other than the crap spewed out by most of the media who seldom report all the news or even get it right. I am satisfied to wait for some real facts and not gut reactions based on few actual facts.
 
Other than the title of this thread and some fears expressed in the OP, this really has nothing to do with the fiasco (however one wishes to look at it) at Waco, Texas.

So... Let's not go there. It will get the thread locked.

If you really must rehash the Waco debacle, start a new thread.
 
So, any of you supporters of forced marriages got a 15-year-old daughter that's still available?

Just asking. ;)

John
 
1. Freedom of religion doesn't mean you get to ignore polygammy, assuault, battery, rape, incest, statutory rape and other laws.

2. The complaint call, if it is even real, specified certain victims and certain perpetraitors. If the complainent won't even press charges or oficially give a statment, I'm not sure what grounds the government really has to hold those people. There has to be some evidence standard I would think.
 
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