Time for a rethink? (drug war)

I do not want my kids to grow up in a society where anyone can walk into the corner store and buy cocaine, LSD, etc. We might just as well flush the country down the toilet if we ever get to that stage.

Well just to throw a wrench in the works.

You have to remember in years past there were no illegal drugs. Heck Cocaine was used in everything. Even the Catholic Pope at that point in history was an addict. But when it's all said and done. I think society has gone further down the toilet under drug bans then it ever did when they were legal. I'm not in any way saying the two are related. I'm saying don't try and play the "drug legalization will be TEOTWAWKI" card.

As far as "pot" is concnerned you can not control something that grows as a weed. It is no more dangerous the tobacco.


Just to satisfy my own curiousity I looked it up:
http://www.reconsider.org/issues/public_health/estimated_deaths_.htm

The stats are old but the point is still the same

Tobacco 430,700
Alcohol 110,640
All licit and illicit drug-induced deaths 16,926
 
I do not want my kids to grow up in a society where anyone can walk into the corner store and buy cocaine, LSD, etc. We might just as well flush the country down the toilet if we ever get to that stage.

Do you have no impact on the life and future decisions of your kids?

Socrates had it right: "Everything in moderation."
 
Do you have no impact on the life and future decisions of your kids?

Yes, but I don't want to live in a society where such stuff would be considered normal.

Well just to throw a wrench in the works.

You have to remember in years past there were no illegal drugs.
And there was a huge drug problem.

Not to mention that you can't compare a 16-19th century frontier society with minimal laws or law enforcement capability to a 21st century society. Sorry guys, but if you wanted to live in a time and place where "anything goes", you were born centuries too late in the USA. In this day and age, you might get that wish fulfilled if you moved to some nation in Africa without a working government.
 
Look, anyone who wants to use these drugs is already using them. The laws aren't stopping anyone. All they're doing is making criminals and terrorists rich, greatly increasing our crime rate, wasting trillions of our dollars that we can't afford to be wasting especially right now, and contributing to the rise of the police state.
 
Yes, but I don't want to live in a society where such stuff would be considered normal.

You should consider not allowing your kids to go to college. :D

People when they reach adulthood are going to have to make up their own minds. Legal or not.

I completely fail to see the difference in a society where your neighbor at a family bar-b-que on drinks 12 beers or smokes a joint.
 
I do not want my kids to grow up in a society where anyone can walk into the corner store and buy cocaine, LSD, etc.

When I read that, it reminded me almost immediately of two statements. One:

I do not want my kids to grow up in a society where anyone can walk into the corner store and buy guns. Good lord, when will the killing stop?

The other was this one, when integration started:

I do not want my kids to grow up in a society where they are forced to sit in school next to one of those @!#$%!s.

Why is it that everyone always starts with "Its for the children," when they want to restrict freedom?
 
jakeswensonmt said:
The "War on Drugs" was never about drugs.

Nixon hated anti-Vietnam-war hippies, so he started the War on Drugs as a method to systematically persecute them.

You're right that drug prohibition, like gun prohibition, is more about "us versus them" than it is about the drugs or guns themselves. You can pretty much read "The Racist Roots of Gun Control" and plug in the word "drug" whenever you encounter the word "gun" and it will be more or less accurate. ;)

Perhaps of more interest to gun owners, the Supreme Court has seen fit to take a pro-big-government drug war legal case and apply it to gun laws.
 
Why is it that everyone always starts with "Its for the children," when they want to restrict freedom?

Its NOT "about the children" per se; its about the kind of society we leave to our kids.

We don't have absolute freedom to do whatever we want ; that would be anarchy. i do not consider laws regulating the kinds of drugs we are talking about to be any more oppressive than laws against driving drunk or what side of the road you drive your car on, or laws against assaulting someone. If you want that kind of "freedom", please find another nation to work your magic in. I am not a fan of anarchy.
 
We don't have absolute freedom to do whatever we want ; that would be anarchy. i do not consider laws regulating the kinds of drugs we are talking about to be any more oppressive than laws against driving drunk or what side of the road you drive your car on, or laws against assaulting someone.

Perfect illustration of lack of any rationality whatsoever, regarding the moral underpinning for laws in general. Equating drug laws with driving on the wrong side of the road! Real deep thinking there. It's our duty to obey, or the alternative is anarchy? Well, case closed.

Couldn't resist the coup de grace...
If you want that kind of "freedom", please find another nation to work your magic in. I am not a fan of anarchy.

Spoken like a true tyrant, you're not running for office, are you? :confused:
 
Actually, this country was supposed to be about freedom (through limited government and personal responsibility). If you can't handle the freedom, then it is you that needs to find another country.

Don't tread on me.
 
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I disagree... if you want to teach your kids something of value, teach them how to support legislation that actually accomplishes goals and solves problems instead of wasting tax payer money. Billions of our tax dollars go down the drain so that we can fight a so-called drug war that never ends and which the drug supply never ends.... that is plain stupid.

Please, someone...anyone...show me a cost/benefit analysis of legalizing drugs.
 
Yes, but many people lack personal responsibility, hence the need for laws regulating personal conduct in the interest of public safety. There is no "responsible" use of illicit drugs. How is there "responsible" use of heroin or crack cocaine?
 
but many people lack personal responsibility, hence the need for laws regulating personal conduct in the interest of public safety
A perfect argument for gun control, or even gun prohibition.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the real issue is why so many people are inclined to do drugs. Society is on a downward spiral.
 
the real issue is why so many people are inclined to do drugs

Human nature? An aversion to physical and/or emotional pain?

Drugs have been around in one form or another since the beginning of civilization. To imply that drugs are why
Society is on a downward spiral
is niave and narrow.
 
My wife,niece,and sons' fiance are all nurses with a combined 50 years experience in health care.
My nephew is a doctor and my sister, a life long friend,and some of my children's friends are social workers.
Some people will use drugs no matter whether they are legal or illegal. Some will abuse drugs, some will die. This is a truth about the human condition, trying to control this (in a free society) has always failed and always will. The side effects of prohibition are an increase in organized crime, and prisons overflowing with nonviolent drug users. Prohibition makes the situation more dangerous, not less, with the added dangers of impure drugs and the criminal nature of those who sell illegal merchandise.

Do you have no impact on the life and future decisions of your kids?
The way to guide the decisions of your children is to raise them well, tell them the truth, talk with them honestly, set a good example. Draconian laws are a poor substitute for a positive upbringing.

I do not want my kids to grow up in a society where anyone can walk into the corner store and buy cocaine, LSD, etc.
I meet and talk with a lot of young people in my travels, and one of the interesting things that they've told me is that they have a harder time obtaining cigarettes or alcohol than pot or meth. Alcohol/tobacco are legal and regulated, therefore there is no black market for alcohol/tobacco. Pot and meth on the other hand, only are available on the black market, and nobody checks your ID there. Lesson? Make something illegal and you control it less, not more.

Another side effect of the anti-drug propaganda that I've seen on the young people relates to the blanket "all drugs are bad" message. In grade school children are very open to programming, and when they get the "all drugs are bad" message they believe it. Later, in high school or college, they try pot, and discover that the reefer madness that they've heard about it is untrue, and that pot is relatively mild, with arguably lesser destructive effects than even alcohol. Many young people think to themselves "All drugs are not bad, we've been lied to, maybe all drugs are good," and proceed to experiment with truly dangerous drugs like meth, oxy, ecstasy. In this sense, it would be true to say that pot is a "gateway drug," but only because the government's dishonesty has lumped this relatively mild substance in with far more powerful drugs and spread the disinformation that these drugs are all equally malevolent.

You have to remember in years past there were no illegal drugs.
And there was a huge drug problem.
About the same as now. Egyptians invented beer (drug). Romans guzzled wine (drug). Jesus turned water into wine, not grape juice. South American indians took hallucinogenic mushrooms and chewed coca. While I was visiting Monticello in the 80's we were shown the area where Thomas Jefferson grew marijuana "for melancholy" as he stated it. Prior to the 20th century Americans took all the drugs that people are hysterical about now including heroin and cocaine. There has always been negative fallout, but prohibition only makes it worse.

Illegal or legal, some people are going to use drugs. They always have. They always will. Get used to it. You can't control everything, and the effort is causing even more problems, consequences unintentional and not ("what happened to my 4th amendment rights?" I thought, as JBT's with a no-knock warrant kicked down my front door...) I don't want to live in a society where everything can be controlled by Big Brother's purporedly-moral church-lady whims. Allow that level of control and you've got a police society like Saudi Arabia, Singapore, or North Korea. There is no drug problem in Saudi Arabia, Singapore, or North Korea. The Taliban was able to reduce Afghan opium production to zero. If you feel that strongly about the topic those places should sound like paradise to you. In a free society you're not ever going to stop drug use. The government knows this, and they don't care, because as I stated already, they care about power that the "War on Drugs" gives them, not the drugs that it purports to be stopping.
 
There is no "responsible" use of illicit drugs.

Would that include medical use of marijuana?

Before you answer, consider that there may be two answers. There are a dozen or so people who have federal permission to use medical cannabis, and the federal government actually supplies them with the drug. For those people, it's not an illicit drug. So I guess that would mean using it might be responsible.

For the rest of us, it's an illicit drug, and therefore any use would be irresponsible according to your statement above.

So the difference between responsible marijuana use and irresponsible marijuana use boils down to whether or not you got your nanny state permission slip before the program was shut down. In other words, the politicians will decide what is and is not responsible medicine.

Nah, no thanks.
 
How many successful casual users of crack do you know?
I don't know because they are probably not telling anyone about it, have secure suppliers, and pay off the police if needed. How many US state governors like to hire Prostitutes? Had I asked this a year ago, you would have answered "zero". People who are doing illegal stuff tend to keep that stuff secret.

I used to use drugs when I was younger. I don't anymore, but if I still did, would I tell you? Hell no.

I did drugs, got over it, went onto better things and got my degree, and now I was hired a week ago by a local telcom firm that I will be starting at in a week. The only difference between me and someone in jail is that I never got caught by the police. Am I a bad person?

I meet and talk with a lot of young people in my travels, and one of the interesting things that they've told me is that they have a harder time obtaining cigarettes or alcohol than pot or meth. Alcohol/tobacco are legal and regulated, therefore there is no black market for alcohol/tobacco.
Agreed, when I was in high school the hardest drug to get at school was tobacco. Alcohol was easier to get, but most people sold it off school grounds and the people who sold it didn't sell to just anybody, normally exclusively to their group of friends/family. After I turned 21 I made some money suppling underage friends. (Friends in the 18-20 age range might I add.) Pot, LSD and such, if you had the money, you could get it at school. I never did anything harder than Ritalin, (poor man's cocaine) but I did know who had the "hard stuff". All this in my North Dakota city.

Pot, that I just stopped smoking it, don't remember why, but I just walked away from it with no withdrawal whatsoever. The Ritalin, that I stopped after I realized how it was affecting me at college and that I really wasn't enjoying it very much anymore. Had I been a little more moderate in my usage and had I been smarter and not bought the pre-crushed pills, that had been cut with who knows what, I probably would have not gotten as low as I did. But I stopped that relatively easily as well.

The hardest drug I have quit was caffeine. My caffeine headaches were one step below a migraine and I had no energy whatsoever. Could not quit cold turkey, had to wean myself off of it. Now I consume it in moderation.

If the government called a cease fire and started regulating and selling drugs overnight there would still be a black market for under priced and unregulated drugs so that is not the answer.
There is no money to be made selling Cigs to underage people. There IS money in smuggling truckloads of Cigs from low-tax areas to high-tax areas and selling to legal users.

For alcohol, as I said before, the people who bought for underage people only bought for their close group of friends/family. I got maybe $10-20 for each "order" I filled for my friends. I turned away several people I didn't know who asked me to take an order for them. Not a big money maker there.

The markup for illegal drugs, as mentioned in another post, is about 17,000%. Heroin, when it was legal, cost about the same as Asprin. Same with Cocaine. So that Heroin addict with a $200 a day habit could, if heroin was legal, satisfy their habit with a few dollars of regulated, pharmaceutical heroin.

The Dealers would be out of business because their adulterated and expensive product would be no match for a pharmaceutical grade product at a low price. People don't overdose on drugs because they want to, they do because the potency of the drug is constantly changing from dealers and suppliers cutting the drugs with who knows what.
 
I did drugs, got over it, went onto better things and got my degree, and now I was hired a week ago by a local telcom firm that I will be starting at in a week. The only difference between me and someone in jail is that I never got caught by the police. Am I a bad person?

Are you a bad person because you did drugs? Perhaps not.

But you should consider yourself lucky...lucky that you were able to back away from the abyss that is drug dependence all on your own...and lucky that you were never caught and charged with illicit drug use when you were using.

But think about those that havent stepped back from that abyss...and the money this country has INVESTED (that is how I look at it) in fighting this scourge that is drug dependence and the trade that surrounds it and feeds it.

I firmly believe it is money well spent.
 
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