As opposed to those who are such alcoholics they dont/cant work, have equally serious and expensive health problems who are magically all paying their own way? oops, nope, the taxpayer is footing the bill for just as many of them too. Sit an on an AA meeting and have your eyes open to the hoorors of alcohol. Sit aroud in the ER and watch all those injured, killed, or with health issues from alcohol abuse coming in (again, many of whom have no jobs or insureance, and the taxpayers are now supporting and giving free medical care too.) I dont see the difference, personally. As for tobacco, when they get lung cancer, and cant work, who is supporting them? when they need medical care who is paying it? the same excuses you give against drugs apply equally to alcohol and tobacco. I have seen it with my own eyes too, so have you, and so have many of us. Which drug you abuse and causes you to be supported by society is irrelevant. It happens just as much with the legal ones, as the illegal ones, so again, whats the difference? the difference is the lack of crime and expensive prison/rehab the taxayers are shelling out for alcohol and tobacco abusers, which is all simply because some were decided to be legel vs illegal.if they were all alegal, or all legal, the taxpayer cost will be the same for them, as will the health problems, and the destroyed families, etc. Nothing will really change but the total monetary cost to taxpayers, and reduction in crime from eliminating the black market.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Time for a rethink? (drug war)
- Thread starter Northern Sod Breaker
- Start date
applesanity
New member
The chain of argument:
Divemedic said it's hypocritical to ban one thing (Mary Jane) but not the other (tobacco). Creature asked how they are similar. Divemedic said that they are both mind altering, addictive, and can be abused.
I said that the mind-altering effects can't really be compared, and that pot really isn't addictive, and that you can't really abuse the reefer. Then divemedic quoted sources stating that ganja can become addictive and can be abused.
So then I conceded a little, but I also argued comparing the addictiveness of tobacco to the addictiveness of pot is like comparing the sizes of aircraft carriers to post-it notes.
In cased you missed it, the translation is that the addictiveness of tobacco=aircraft carriers, addictiveness of herb=post-it notes. Then you said:
?
Divemedic said it's hypocritical to ban one thing (Mary Jane) but not the other (tobacco). Creature asked how they are similar. Divemedic said that they are both mind altering, addictive, and can be abused.
I said that the mind-altering effects can't really be compared, and that pot really isn't addictive, and that you can't really abuse the reefer. Then divemedic quoted sources stating that ganja can become addictive and can be abused.
So then I conceded a little, but I also argued comparing the addictiveness of tobacco to the addictiveness of pot is like comparing the sizes of aircraft carriers to post-it notes.
In cased you missed it, the translation is that the addictiveness of tobacco=aircraft carriers, addictiveness of herb=post-it notes. Then you said:
Desslock said:I hope I misunderstood you. You do realize that cigarettes have been proven time and again to be more addictive than heroin, which I'd be willing to bet is more addictive still than pot. Please tell me I misunderstood you.
?
Northern Sod Breaker
New member
I don't know where you get your information, but the ice cream sundae was invented in my hometown at the request of a customer looking for the combination of stuff that goes into a sundae. Nothing about drugs or evading laws by creating sundaes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream_sundae#History_and_controversy
the many stories about the invention of the sundae, one frequent theme is the sinfulness of the ice cream soda and the need to produce a substitute for the popular treat for consumption on Sunday.
Creature, you need to understand that these horrible things that you describe are happening WHILE these drugs are illegal. It is obvious (I hope) that what is being done currently is not working.
So the downward trend of drug abuse and cigarette use among teenagers is a sign that what is currently being done is not working? I would say that something is working even if just a little bit. I wonder what would happen if drugs became legal...oh wait, the Alaskan marijuana experiment was already mention.
applesanity
New member
Now it isn't whether or not a drug is addictive, but how much. Not whether or not it is mind altering, but how much. Not about whether there is damage to society, but how much.
It's fun to play the devil's advocate.
oh wait, the Alaskan marijuana experiment was already mention.
Part of it was, anyway. Left out were the parts where the Alaska Supreme Court threw out the prohibition law in 2003, and the ballot initiative drive in 2004 in which the issue was crammed down the government's throat again by voters. I'm not sure where the political support for that came from if the whole thing was the glaring failure you have painted it to be. The continued existence of the obsolete GOP notwithstanding, glaring failures are usually obvious to one and all and cannot regain political support.
I read your cited article and I am still not sure what you are getting at. Because, in the end, after nearly fifteen years of legalized marijuana possession, the Alaskan voters decided that the it was a dumb idea and swiftly voted to make it a crime again. By any analysis, the Alaskan marijuana experiment WAS a glaring failure. Especially when it is voted out by a popular vote.I'm not sure where the political support for that came from if the whole thing was the glaring failure you have painted it to be.
1. With Marinol, you have to hand a pill and a glass of water to a nauseated person and say, "Here, swallow this and keep it down." The inherent problem should be obvious.
Oral: Marinol; injection: Sumatriptan...the premise that the benefits of THC can only be obtained from smoking marijuana just isnt true.
Last edited:
"It's working just as well as Prohibition."
Bingo, you've got it spot on. The US has spent hundreds of billions on Nixon's holy war on drugs. Prisons were filled with dope users. So we built more prisons to house more dope users. Violent felons are being let out of prison to make way for dopers. They used dope before they went to prison and they will used dope when they get out.
The so called "war on drugs" is the biggest and most expensive joke ever played on this country.
Bingo, you've got it spot on. The US has spent hundreds of billions on Nixon's holy war on drugs. Prisons were filled with dope users. So we built more prisons to house more dope users. Violent felons are being let out of prison to make way for dopers. They used dope before they went to prison and they will used dope when they get out.
The so called "war on drugs" is the biggest and most expensive joke ever played on this country.
The so called "war on drugs" is the biggest and most expensive joke ever played on this country.
Please back up your claim with citable facts.
Drug use is hardly like stepping into the abyss. It's more like a swimming pool. You have the shallow end where it gradually gets deeper and deeper until it starts taking a sharp drop into the deep end.But you should consider yourself lucky...lucky that you were able to back away from the abyss that is drug dependence all on your own...and lucky that you were never caught and charged with illicit drug use when you were using.
But think about those that havent stepped back from that abyss...and the money this country has INVESTED (that is how I look at it) in fighting this scourge that is drug dependence and the trade that surrounds it and feeds it.
I firmly believe it is money well spent.
Most people play in the shallow end and don't get close to the drop off. Some people get close to the drop off, see what is about to happen, and back off. (Like myself.) Some people are having too much fun to see what is happening and go off the drop off into the deep end. Even then, some people don't care that they are drowning. Others desperately want help.
There is the lifeguard that everyone pays through taxes and usage fees. But instead of rescuing the people who are in the deep end and want help, the lifeguard gets a baseball bat and beats up everyone he catches swimming in the pool and lets the people in the deep end drown.
So the end effect is that anyone that wants to play in the pool have to sneak in at night without any supervision or safety precautions in place.
Most of the people who are playing in the pool stay in the shallow end and don't even come close to the drop off.
Going with government statistics, in 2001:
41.7% of people 12 and older reported using illegal drugs.
12.6% reported using illegal drugs in the past year.
7.1% reported using illegal drugs in the past 30 days.
Most people who use drugs don't become seriously addicted. The addiction rate in the US has remained fairly consistent over the last 80+ years at about 1.3% of the population. The WOD has had no affect on this. It is money wasted.
I stepped back because I saw where I was going and decided that I wanted to stay in the real world and not the world that drugs created. I actually didn't plan on quiting drugs. I originally planned to just take a break and get my act together and then go back to limited usage. I simply never started using drugs again as I found other things to spend my time and money on. There are other people who I knew on a limited basis that did this as well. My story is not unique.
Some people see where they are going and prefer the world that the drugs create and not the real world. You can't help those people any more than you can help an alcoholic who wants to drink themselves to death.
The best you can do is to tax those substances to offset the cost. Cigarette smokers already pay more than their fair share. (What do you think all of those taxes are for?) They die of diseases that are relatively cheap to treat and don't result in them lingering on for too long. Lung cancer often isn't detected until it is too late and when it is, death usually follows relatively quickly. They help preserve Social Security and Medicare by not dying of long lasting diseases like Alzheimer's. It's morbid, but true.
Making victimless crimes illegal rarely makes anything better.
By any analysis, the Alaskan marijuana experiment WAS a glaring failure. Especially when it is voted out by a popular vote.
How did they get 44% to vote to relegalize it in 2004? How about their medical cannabis initiative, which passed? And speaking of medical cannabis...
Oral: Marinol; injection: Sumatriptan...the premise that the benefits of THC can only be obtained from smoking marijuana just isnt true.
Strawman, since that was never my premise. I answered your previous question:
I gave several answers, including the price per dose of Marinol vs the price per dose of black market cannabis. Let's compare Sumatriptan on price as well...Why does no one ever ask those that argue in favor of "medical" marijuana why they need to actually smoke the marijuana plant when a pharmacutical product called Marinol already exists?
I would also suggest that you back up your claim that the drug war is much broader than the war on cannabis. It's not, as I later pointed out. I erroneously recalled that the war on cannabis was over half of the drug war, as measured by number of arrests. I checked and it turns out that the war on cannabis is almost half of the drug war, not over half. Year after year, we have more cannabis arrests than violent crime arrests. It seems a major misallocation of resources, since there are bigger problems, more dangerous drugs, problems more likely to be susceptible to a government imposed solution, etc.Please back up your claim with citable facts.
Nobody is saying that. The thing people are saying is that the benefits of Marinol or Sumatriptan can be had for a fraction of the cost of those pharmaceuticals by simply smoking the marijuana or using a vaporizer.Oral: Marinol; injection: Sumatriptan...the premise that the benefits of THC can only be obtained from smoking marijuana just isnt true.
Northern Sod Breaker
New member
Very well put...Drug use is hardly like stepping into the abyss. It's more like a swimming pool. You have the shallow end where it gradually gets deeper and deeper until it starts taking a sharp drop into the deep end.
Most people play in the shallow end and don't get close to the drop off. Some people get close to the drop off, see what is about to happen, and back off. (Like myself.) Some people are having too much fun to see what is happening and go off the drop off into the deep end. Even then, some people don't care that they are drowning. Others desperately want help.
There is the lifeguard that everyone pays through taxes and usage fees. But instead of rescuing the people who are in the deep end and want help, the lifeguard gets a baseball bat and beats up everyone he catches swimming in the pool and lets the people in the deep end drown.
So the end effect is that anyone that wants to play in the pool have to sneak in at night without any supervision or safety precautions in place.
Most of the people who are playing in the pool stay in the shallow end and don't even come close to the drop off.
I've never so much as drank alcohol but a person doesn't have to put there hand on a burner to know a stove is hot.
I have a friend that when he's sober he's the nicest guy you'll ever meet. But when he starts drinking hard liquor he's a different person and will try and pick a fight over the dumbest things. But the next day when the hang over finaly wears off he's back to being the nicest guy you'll ever meet. Anyone who says alcohol is not "mind altering" is full of SH**. The arguement that it's legal becuase it's not mind altering does not fly.
As for the "other" illegal drugs, let's just deal with one at a time.
Do you have any prescription drugs in your house that are over a year old? Do you save old prescriptions (like painkillers) in case you need them later? Have you ever taken a prescription medication that wasn't yours? Ever given someone one of your prescription drugs?
If so, you are breaking the law, Druggie McDrugdealer.
If so, you are breaking the law, Druggie McDrugdealer.
Cite your source. If my doctor prescribes me a pain med to take as needed, nothing I am aware of requires that I use up the script within a year.Do you have any prescription drugs in your house that are over a year old? Do you save old prescriptions (like painkillers) in case you need them later? ...If so, you are breaking the law, Druggie McDrugdealer.