Time for a rethink? (drug war)

We had a medical marajuana clinic in our city and it was close within two weeks of the doors opening. Their was a city council meeting in which the local police gave a speech to the members of the city regarding how much crime this would bring in and cause massive crime issues. Two days later it was closed.
Now I worked in these clinics for over a year as a security guard and heres what I can say I've seen first hand.(For the record I don't smoke anything) The Police were way wrong in their so called expert opinon, in which they have never had a marajuana clinic in their city before thus how would they know about these clinics? Sounds like an appeal to authourty. In the time I worked in these clinics I have never been envolved in any kind of fight or had a fight or physical confrontation where I worked. When I worked at the local sports bar or other clubs, I can't count how many fights I've seen,shooting, stabbing and fights I had to stop or got into.But of course those clinics are nothing but problems, BULL!
The gangs and other members of organized crime should have sent a letter thanking the city for closing these clinics down because they stay in business and crime goes up and gangs make lots of money and create more drug related crime by dealing on the streets. Smart very smart!
 
We had a medical marajuana clinic in our city and it was close within two weeks of the doors opening. Their was a city council meeting in which the local police gave a speech to the members of the city regarding how much crime this would bring into the city and cause massive crime issues. Two days later it was closed.
Now I worked in these clinics for over a year as a security guard and heres what I can say I've seen. First I don't smoke anything. The Police were way wrong in their so called expert opinon in which they have never had a marajuana clinic in their city before thus how would they know about these clinics. In the time I worked in these clinics I have never been envolved in any kind of fight or had a fight or physical confrontation where I worked. When I worked at the local sports bar or other clubs I worked at I can't count how many fights I've seen,shooting, stabbing and fights I had to stop or got into.But of course those clinics are nothing but problems, BULL!
The gangs and other members of organized crime should have sent a letter thanking the city for closing these clinics down because they stay in business and crime goes up and gangs make lots of money and create more drug related crime by dealing on the streets. Smart very smart!
 
No telling what would happen if MJ was made legal but controlled.
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The problem, as my botany teacher used to say, is if you make it legal you can't control it.

Tobacco, coca, opium need specific climates; cannabis, being a weed, needs water and dirt. No one stands to profit.
 
Prohibition could not control those who wanted to drink alcohol. As a result, violent crime and gang involvement in the elicit trade of alcohol rose rapidly. When prohibition was repealed, gang violence declined.

We could have learned a valuable lesson here. However, it is clear that there are enough people in government who put self interest ahead of serving the public interests as a whole, and the status quo will continue.
 
Legalization would be society essentially saying that illegal drugs are OK. Since they are NOT OK, that would be the wrong message to send about appropriate conduct.
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No, it is saying that illegal drugs are now legal. There is not much difference between one mind altering, addictive drug and another.

Caffeine
Marijuana
Cocaine
Alcohol
Sugar
Ecstasy
LSD
Nicotine
Oxycontin
Valium
Morphine
Amphetamines
Hydrocodone
Xanax
Oxycodone
Ephedrine

Every one of the above drugs is addictive and can cause death. Every one of them is mind or mood altering. Some are legal, some are legal for over the counter sale, some are controlled. Some of the controlled ones used to be legal for over the counter. Some are given to military members to modify their behavior. Other than that, what are the differences?

Even the illegal drugs are legal under certain circumstances. Like, if the government wants a pilot to stay awake.
 
I have a hard time caring about anyone who insists on digging their own, or anyone elses grave. There is just a brick wall that everyone who pontificates on how to deal with the increasing number of drains in society either ignors or is unaware of. THEY JUST KEEP COMING!!!

There are just a whole lot of people out there who have no concerns above their own instant gratification. Drug addicts, criminals, welfare addicts who have no intention of ever fending for themselves and the whole group of people who just think it's cool to be crooks. I don't want to help any of them anymore. I never did but I never got to make that choice, the government makes it for us because they are using social unrest to gain votes. We continue to support the dregs and they continue to breed with each other and the cycle is never ending. When do we just call it quits?

If every social welfare program were cut tomorrow it would be an ugly first few years while those who just don't get it and can't wean off of the entitlement tit went crazy and decided to take what they want. Legalizing drugs would help to thin the heard somewhat. Nationwide endorsement of concealed carry would show them that armed people are everywhere and the only option is to get a job and contribute or die while taking from lawfull people.

Government likes the chaos and dark underbelly. It gives them a reason to exist. If everything is peachy keen then they have no reason to regulate and thus no power. In a way they work just like the drug companies, the money is in bandaid treatments, not cures.
 
"The drain on us is tremendous and does anyone really think that it will get better by legalizing it??"
--Yes, because we will not be spending hundreds of millions of dollars on relatively futile drug enforcement policies.

"Telling Johnny and Jane that they can start using at 18 legally is like throwing gas on the fire to put it out----makes no sense."
Not everything is that simple!
Heck, just look at gun control. "How can more guns lead to anything but more violence" :barf:

"Sorry, no bleeding heart liberal here--no excuses--use drugs get killed,hooked,arrested,eat out of dumpsters--to bad--your choice---life is hard for most people."
The results would be the same, except for the "get arrested" part. The difference is, taxpayers wouldn't be spending so much money to see the same results.


"For anyone that thinks that robberies and such will decrease through legalization, are you serious?"
--Gangs are funded by black market drugs. Remove the funding!

"Were do you think the addict that can't hold a job is going to get the money for his drugs??"
--And this isn't a problem now? If you remove the black market, the economic side will likely get better (cheaper). If users don't bankrupt themselves on black market (i.e. expensive) drugs, they might not commit so many robberies.

"Would you like to the government to FORCE employers to hire addicts??"
--NO. What the heck are you talking about? Do we FORCE employers to hire drunks?

"Should the state have free drug clinics for the addicts--pass it out like candy to keep the rest of us safe??"
--No...and that has nothing to do with ending the "war on drugs"

This isn't about handing out drugs or having the government pay for drugs. It is about the government not wasting taxpayers' money on policies that don't work.
 
Legalization would be society essentially saying that illegal drugs are OK. Since they are NOT OK, that would be the wrong message to send about appropriate conduct.
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Why exactly are they not OK?
 
In America, there are legal drugs which are far worse than some drugs which are illegal.

This makes the "war on drugs" immoral without any foundation. As such, it is pointless except to fund and expand yet another government program (DEA).
 
Mr. Dipper,
What I believe I am hearing from you is a good recitation of the fear-based untruths, disinformation, and vilification that has been promulgated by the federal government since the 1980's in support of the "War on Drugs." Which, as I noted above, is a brilliant Orwellian whitewash for what would more rightfully be called "The War on the Bill of Rights."

Much like the hysterical and illogical arguments of the Anti-Gun movement, most of it is nonsensical, non factual, emotional, and withers quickly in the light of history and common sense.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. Do some research, I think your thoughts on the topic might change.
 
i do security in one of the low income housing projects in my city and drugs are a big problem as well as alcohol. i tell all the guys that work under me that we will never clean up the projects but we can make it somewhat a better living environment for the few good people who live there. the same goes for the war on drugs. the government will never be able to get rid of all the illegal drugs but they can do what they can to get as much of it off the streets as possible. doing something is better than doing nothing at all.
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The war on drugs (so called) and doing nothing get nearly the same results... except that people go to jail in the name of this "do nothing" policy... while the drug supply remains readily available. Amazingly, though we spend BILLIONS of dollars on this so-called war on drugs..... the drug supply never ends. Why is that?

Sorry, I am not convinced that the war on drugs is anything more than an expensive failure.... I have read my history.
 
Our local paper runs several articles a year about the danger in, and destruction to, our public lands. Just a sample:

“With the blitz of marijuana gardens around Shasta County, Bosenko said officials hope to not only get rid of the pot, but also win back the land for the public that owns it.
"These organizations are destroying our lands and wildlife," he said.”
Redding Record Searchlight, 7/13/07 http://www.redding.com/news/2007/jul/13/drug-czar-gives-warning/
“But one red flag retains its power to shock -- Forest Service alerts to watch out for illegal marijuana plantations and the armed men guarding them on our public lands.”
Redding Record Searchlight, 7/13/08 http://www.redding.com/news/2007/jul/08/marijuana-still/

“Pot gardens on public land aren't only a problem in Tehama County. They are found throughout the north state. And law enforcement officers say the measures growers will take to guard the gardens are putting people at risk, not only those who raid them but also members of the public who come across them.”
Redding Record Searchlight, 11/19/06 http://www.redding.com/news/2006/nov/19/a-dangerous-crop-marijuana-growers-are-a-risk-to/

These problems would NOT EXIST, if drugs were not illegal.
The problems that would still exist if drugs were legal, exist now when they are illegal. Why not remove the problems that we can? I know, I know...It's because there are none so blind as those who will not see. Sigh!
 
There are many babies born with alcohol-related defects. I don't use drugs, but it seems like most drug users use a little at a time, just as most people drink alcohol in moderation. In the common opinion, the negative image of illegal drugs stems from how certain people behave to cover their tracks of using and buying/selling illegal drugs (they shoot police officers and innocent), plus from all the burglaries and robberies that occur to help users pay for their drugs. If drugs could be produced openly, legally, the cost for the consumer would go down to nothing and people could get high for free, and the police could use their resources to catch violent scum and rapists instead. How many drunks have you seen lately in the streets? Even if alcohol was illegalized, those same drunks would still be out there, staggering about.
 
drugs

jakeswensonmt,

You're account of me and my thoughts are way off and all wrong--really.
I am VERY self reliant and have worked very hard in my life and nobody gave me anything---I am THE LAST PERSON that wants government interference in his life and I am FAR from hysterical about the drug problem.
I have dealt with a fair amount of problems in my life and I expect no one to take care of me or my family---I always have taken my responsibilities seriously and look to no one for help---AND I EXPECT OTHERS TO DO THE SAME WITH NO BS EXCUSES OR WHINING!!
I do not take your thoughts as a personnel attack, but you did not address anything specific--you just said I was not looking at the problem correctly more or less.
If you care to comment be specific please don't just say you're wrong and do some reading--I have---BUT more importantly, I have real life experience and so does my family.
My wife,niece,and sons' fiance are all nurses with a combined 50 years experience in health care.
My nephew is a doctor and my sister, a life long friend,and some of my children's friends are social workers.
From all of the talks we have together, I think I get a pretty good synopsis of what is going on in society as it pertains to drugs and drug abuse and I was in law enforcement for a few years.

So, I don't think anything I have said was "fear-based" or "disinformation".
It called life experience---not reading something some "high-minded" idiot wrote about drugs.
My family,friends and I have seen with our own eyes the negative impact of drugs on society--and yes, we can trust our own "lying eyes."
I have already said that the "war on drugs" is a joke--it really is--but I will never agree that making drug use legal is the answer.
If some one is saying that it will stop or curtail the gang wars---yes I agree it probably would have a positive affect on that aspect of the drug problem.
Would it cut down on usage? NO
Would there be more addicts? I think YES for alot of reasons.
Drug abuse is a drain on society and the drug addict rarely works or is employed--and we raise the dysfunctional children they produce.
How about the health care they all will need---we pay for that to---yes we do.

Divemedic,
I showed my wife your post and she laughed--she suggests you get a PDR and look up the drugs you listed---to say what is the difference in the listed drugs shows a huge amount of ignorance on the subject---really, there is a VAST difference in additiveness and affects on the body and mind between the drugs on your list.

Really, I wouldn't mind sometimes if they did legalize drugs---would thin the herd and good citizens would have less idiots to deal with.
AND Jakes, don't worry, I can and do take care of myself and my family---I don't expect or ask anyone for anything---I deal with things as they come--no problem!! Sorry for the long post!!
Peace,

Dipper
 
Let's look at the list then, shall we?

Caffeine and nicotine- they are both highly addictive, mind altering substances. They are the two most abused drugs in America today.

Excessive alcohol causes approximately 79,000 deaths annually. In fact, excessive alcohol use is the 3rd leading lifestyle-related cause of death for people in the United States each year.According to national surveys, over half of the adult US population drank alcohol in the past 30 days. Approximately, 5% of the total population drank heavily while 15% of the population binge drank.

Xanax and Valium are both Benzodiazapenes. They are addicitive, and Xanax It acts quickly on the brain, and has a short half life. Xanax is not picked up by normal urinalysis (drug test). This creates a difficult circumstance for out patient recovery from Xanax addiction.

The 1990 to 1998 National Institute of Drug Abuse statistics show that the number of Americans who began to misuse sedatives nearly doubled, while abuse of pain relievers rose 180% during this time period. Xanax has found its way from pharmacies to drug dealers, and is being abused by young, healthy people across the nation who want to get high.

Oxycontin, Morphine, Hydrocodone, and Oxycodone are all highly addicitve opioid analgesics. They are controlled substances. Over time, opioid abuse will become physically addictive, causing a person to experience withdrawal symptoms when the drug is not present. Symptoms of withdrawal include restlessness, muscle and bone pain, insomnia, diarrhea, vomiting, cold flashes with goose bumps, and involuntary leg movements.

Retail sales of five major painkillers rose 90% from 1997 to 2005, DEA statistic show. The increase is driven by Oxycodone, which has seen sales increase nearly 600% in that same time frame.

Ephedrine is the key ingredient used to make methamphetamine. Amphetamines are the drug of choice for the US Air Force when they hand out "go pills" to air crews flying long missions. Do you want an aircrew that is taking amphetamines flying around with explosives?

LSD Most users of LSD voluntarily decrease or stop its use over time. LSD is not considered an addictive drug since it does not produce compulsive drug-seeking behavior as do cocaine, amphetamine, heroin, alcohol, and nicotine.

Do you want to compare the rest?

Marijuana
Cocaine
Sugar
Ecstasy
Nicotine

BTW- I am in my 20th year as an EMS provider. I am an instructor, I have 2 college degrees, and I am well aware of this fact:

If I respond to an auto accident after midnight, I can guarantee you that at least one of the drivers, often both, are intoxicated on alcohol. I have seen this literally thousands of times. In that same time period, I have seen exactly two accidents where a driver was intoxicated on marijuana.
 
drugs

BTW- I am in my 20th year as an EMS provider. I am an instructor, I have 2 college degrees.

Then you should not have made such an ignorant statement!!

I can go a 2 weeks(and have) without a cup of coffee after drinking it multiple times daily for 45 years---how long can a oxycontin abuser last with out a fix/hit before robbing or killing someone for drug money---lets say someone that has been using oxy for a year---how long??
I quit chewing tobacco cold turkey after using it for 40 years---didn't need a clinic or a doctor or any drug---how about a heroin addict---how long can he go without a fix---how long before he robs or kills someone---keep in mind that I have worked around recovering addicts--people that used for decades---I already know the answer and I have seen the damage to their bodies and they freely admit what they did to themselves---I never saw the same affects from a long term coffee drinker or cig smoker---have you?
AND sugar LOL your kidding right??

You need to check out the stats on the OXY deaths in and around the Boston area---120 teenagers in less than 3 years --all from a pretty small area---most (like 90%) died from OXY abuse---NOT nicotine or sugar or caffeine or booze---OXY --why? because it is FAR more addictive and destructive than other "drugs" you have listed.
Yes, booze IS a problem no doubt---but I also saw alot of drug related accidents and deaths too.
When coffee drinkers and cig smokers and tobacco chewers and donut lovers start acting like OXY abusers and heroin addicts --let me know.
Really, your argument and logic is flawed.

Dipper
 
When coffee drinkers and cig smokers and tobacco chewers and donut lovers start acting like OXY abusers and heroin addicts --let me know.
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There are many many people that do need clinics/doctors/drugs to stop abusing tobacco and sugar. Your personal experience is not the norm. Did you ever come home after work and eat a pound of butter and sugar mixed in a bowl? Don't doubt that these people exist. That these products come both legally and cheaply means something, too.
 
Having read a good share of the posts so far I think it's safe to say that very few think the war on drugs is effective at controlling drugs (increasing govt power maybe but that's a story for another time) So now that we for the most part all agree we have a choice to make.

Do we:

Continue the same failed expierment over and over and expect.

Change to a more effective means of banning drugs (if anyone has ideas please express them now)

Or do we conclude that people should be allowed to make their own choices. There are laws on the books in every state about drunk driving. Why should we be made to believe that if drugs were made legal similar laws would not exist. Personaly I think there are a lot of stupid things people do. Drugs being one of them. But if someone wishes to partake in such an activity that should be their choice alone. (unless there under the age of legal consent but yet agian a story for another time).

In addition I think the media exaggerates drug use, They show many cases of drug crime/death. But they don't make known how much of that if from the drugs themselves and how much is from the prohibition and related crime. and 2) they don't tell of the thouasands who do their drugs queitly and harm no one but themselves.

Finaly this could be applied to many things outside of the drug war debate but, Have we come so far as a people that we forgot our beginings as a people being independent and self sustaining, to a people the requires and demands Uncle Sam stand over our shoulder and say "Eat this but not that."


Northern Sod Breaker
 
drugs

Wow,
I don't know what to say!!
This is just the kind of talk that comes from the control freaks and food police---talk about government interference in our lives, that is just what these nuts talk about---OXY , Heroin, butter, sugar and McDonalds all in the same sentence.

Look, I have never been bothered or accosted outside of Starbucks by a person that was strung out trying to get their next coffee fix---same goes for Krispy Kream--never had a problem with a donut junky.
I never was asked if I had any sugar or butter by a strung out person.
I never saw a car accident listing the drivers as impaired or driving under the influence of food.
I understand that anything I guess can be abused---is that REALLY what we are talking about??
I really can't comment much more on this subject but as far as I'm concerned, we're cool!!
Sod Breaker,
Drug abuse is NEVER a choice that affects just the user---never!!
Society in general suffers for my previously stated reasons and specifically, the mothers and fathers and children and spouses of the addict suffer too--it is 99% of the time a group or family problem.
I have seen the looks on the faces of family members in the emergency room---I have heard the stories--I have seen the divorces and the children's pain---I have had addicts tell me "I just can't stop and I know I'm dying"
I have seen previously successful people loose everything they had---and they just started out partying on weekends and then...well...that ain't enough anymore.
The teenagers from the Boston area were/are paying $80.00 a pill for OXY and many need more than one dose a day---where do you think the money is coming from when a junior in high school is hooked??
So, should be legalize it and make it more affordable and let people die faster??
Do you think that if we were to legalize the drugs that MAYBE some that wouldn't normally use would because hey man, it's legal!!
I don't have ALL the answers, I'll let you all sort this out....good luck and
Peace

Dipper
 
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You make my point. Why are there very few criminal junkies for caffeine and nicotine?

They are legal, and cheap.

Make tobacco illegal, prices skyrocket. When I was in the military, our CO banned tobacco products while we were deployed. Soon, people were charging (and getting) $2 per cigarette.


Every drug I listed is:
1 mind altering
2 addictive (except LSD)
The only difference is one of degree.

So, in other words, since LSD isn't addictive, it should be legal?

I have seen the looks on the faces of family members in the emergency room---I have heard the stories--I have seen the divorces and the children's pain---I have had addicts tell me "I just can't stop and I know I'm dying"
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I have seen smokers dying of lung cancer who still smoke. So smoking should be outlawed?

I have seen previously successful people loose everything they had---and they just started out partying on weekends and then...well...that ain't enough anymore.
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How many lives ruined by alcohol?

and BTW, if kids are paying $80 for oxy, they are crazy. Heroin, morphine and oxy are all cheaper than that on the street.
 
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