Outback Steakhouse in Fairfax does NOT want our money

If I was in a situation where I thought I was at risk I would carry. Frankly I would not eat in a restaurant if I figured I would need to carry- why, because I want to have a quiet drink and enjoy myself, and I realise that alcohol and firearms do not mix.
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Do you drive to said restaurant? You know driving and alcohol don't mix, right?

First, I do believe its the property owners right to ban firearms... I disagree with the decision, but its his decision to make. I would simply leave the place as the original poster did.

However, saying people shouldn't carry in restaraunts really boggles the mind... You're less likely to get robbed walking to your car from a restaraunt than walking to your car from another store? If the answer is no, they are both equally likely, then perhaps you just shouldn't carry in public at all.

The only reason the gun had to be carried openly was because of the law... and anyways, I believe you should be able to carry openly anyways. I'd personally prefer to have it concealed anyways.

You say you wouldn't eat there if you thought you'd have to defend yourself... well why don't you just not go anywhere that you think you'll have to defend yourself, and you won't have to worry about carrying at all. For me, I never know where the crazy person is going to show up, so I'd prefer to be prepared at all times.
 
"If I was in a situation where I thought I was at risk I would carry."

What the fu... :confused: :confused:


Lawyer Daggit, using that logic, do you only purchase health, home, or auto insurance for those instances during which you feel you're going to be at risk, but most of the time simply go without insurance?

This kind of attitude/outlook absolutely baffles me.

You NEVER are guaranteed of being risk free.

That was one of the strongest premises of the CCW movement in Texas after the Luby's Cafeteria massacre in the early 1990s.

I've got a very funny feeling that the 20something dead patrons in the Luby's Cafeteria in Texas felt perfectly content in their safety until the shooter exited his truck and started gunning people down randomly.

Same with the people at the McDonald's in San Ysidro, California.

A friend of mine has a favorite saying...

Life comes at you fast, and there's no way to stop it.
 
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"Don't get me wrong, I am as big a supporter of the right to carry as anyone out there. After all, it is a matter of rights. Having looked at the Virginia Law, however, it gives the property owner the right to exclude guns from his premises if they wish. It sounds like the owner was merely excercising that right. At that point it falls to the patron to make a choice. I personnaly would leave. It is apparent that the policy of Outback doesn't hurt their business though."

SWMike, you're absolutely correct. It is the property owner's right to exclude people with firearms from the premises.

At the same time, it is also the right of those so excluded to make peacable demonstrations that show just how A) wrong that kind of police is, and B) just how much it can cost them financially.
 
really?

"SWMike, you're absolutely correct. It is the property owner's right to exclude people with firearms from the premises."

SS: Habeus Corpus! - show me the body (of law that is)... which permits a private property owner ejecting somebody...

Here's a hint, take a very close look at 4.1-100...


All of this discussion is well and good about whether you think it's 'right' or correct to have a gun where alcohol is served, or in any of the other favorite of the prohibitionist areas... But Kony said it best "thanks for making my decision for me on where I can carry"...

I don't berate people for choosing not to carry, I've known a couple of folks who would not carry until they had that 'magical permit' even though open carry is perfectly legal. No worries, it's their choice.

I do berate folks who presume to make that choice for me... or everyone else for that matter.

Now... Let's have some facts:
"Hypothetically if someone went into the restaurant to rob the place I would not want to be in the situation where someone who is probably untrained opens fire with the result that civilians get injured"...

Aside from an episode of the Left Wing, perhaps you could provide some statistical evidence?

In fact, can you even provide any instance of someone being 'targeted' because they were open carrying?

Anybody? Bueller?
 
lawyer daggit wrote
I am of the view that every member of the population should own and know how to use firearms and carry them in situations of need, however packing in a restaurant is not one of them.

Hypothetically if someone went into the restaurant to rob the place I would not want to be in the situation where someone who is probably untrained opens fire with the result that civilians get injured. If someone is carrying and it the firearm is concealed it is easier for the armed person to make a decision if this is an appropriate time to make his move rather than have to because the robber knows he is armed.
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Then your issue is with the law in VA, not with the people. They are forced to carry openly if they are going to bring a gun -- which it is their right to have for personal protection -- into a restaurant that serves alcohol, correct?

I'd wager that most of those who carry openly in VA restaurants do so because they refuse to be denied their means of defense, and the law proscribes how they have to go about it if they want to retain that means (i.e. open carry). Given the choice, I believe that most would carry concealed.

Plus,
We are not saying that the only situation we are preparing for is an out-and-out robbery of, and shootout in, the restaurant. When I go to a restaurant, I don't carry because I think I'll get held up IN the restaurant. I carry because I'll be walking both ways through a parking lot, and driving to and from the place, and returning to my unoccupied house... The restaurant is not the only place I may have the need of a gun. Why don't you acknowledge that? This is not all about being hero-man in a restaurant that gets stormed by armed robbers. I understand your point that open-carriers would possibly have their hands forced in such a circumstance, but that is not their fault, it's the fault of the VA legislature. Meanwhile, I do not support denying them their right to bear arms.

You say, "packing in a restaurant is not one of them."
Are you saying that restaurants should be like courts and federal buildings, and across the board, they should be another place where no one but LEO should be allowed to carry?? :confused: You gotta be kidding. What makes restaurants sacrosanct??

Since it is OBVIOUS (except, apparently, to YOU) that a "situation of need" can arise anywhere a criminal decides to confront us, we carry wherever we go. How have you managed to never realize, as the rest of us accept as conventional wisdom and common sense, that we will not get to pick and choose when we get attacked, by whom, and where?

If all it took to avoid getting attacked was to never go where we thought we might need a gun, we could all just leave our guns at home and make sure to go only "where it's safe." But that place is a fantasy. The only one who seems to have not realized that truth is you.

-blackmind
 
Card Carrying redneck.

What a lot of guys need to understand is that there are degrees of belief in rights between those who seek to abolish firearms at one end and the card carrying red neck at the other ( a few of the latter are I believe in our cyber presence).
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That is exactly what those opposed to firearms want you to beleive, and it looks like you have been brainwashed pretty well.
Reasonable degrees:
You don't NEED that "assault weapon".
You don't NEED to carry your guns.
You don't NEED to keep them unlocked in your home.
You don't NEED to keep them in your home.
You don't NEED to keep them at all.

One "reasonable degree" leads to another, which leads to the end.

Perhaps you are right. There may be some "card carrying rednecks" about, but most of us seem like well informed individuals who want to maintain that right as it was meant. The unrestricted ownership and use of firearms. Personally, I take offense to your idea that anyone supporting the 2A in a manner inconsistent with your own is an inbred retard who wants to carry his shotgun shells in the pocket of his overalls.

You seem to support the collective "well-regulated militia" veiw of firearms ownership. I am sure that I need not remind you (but will do so anyway) that this argument has been used to disarm several large US population centers and many foreign countries. "You don't need to protect yourself, we have the military and police for that." :rolleyes:

As for the restaurant issue, do you really think that you can go to a place that will GUARANTEE your safety while you are in the establishment?
Do the retaurants you eat at profile their customers in an attempt to determine who might be threat before they enter? If such a place exists, please share it with the rest of us.

If I was in a situation where I thought I was at risk I would carry.
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Would you please define for us a situation of risk? As you seem to think that the majority of us cannot analyze risk for ourselves, or have no right to do so, please inform us.

Bottom Line:
The restaurant owner/manager can ask us to disarm.
We have a choice to disarm or leave.
Lawyer Daggit knows the safest steakhouse in town, and isn't telling :D
 
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outbacks steaks are overpriced and not up to par. its no big loss, there are plenty of other(and better) steakhouses out there.
 
If I was in a situation where I thought I was at risk I would carry.
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I always love statements like that...

Lets see the other side of that coin. If I was in a situation where I knew I was at risk (I read that as possibly need my weapon), I am getting the f*** out now.

The way it was put to me once - I carry my gun when I go out because I dont know if I am going to need it. If I knew I was going to need it, I would not go out.
 
When asked when I expect to need my carry weapon, I answer, "I don't know when I'll need it." That usually is followed by, "Then, if you don't know you're going to need it, why do you carry it?" My reply: "I just answered that question." I.e., because I don't know when I'll need it.

If I think the questioner is asking for genuine curiousity, I explain that the last time a citizen was robbed or attacked in a 50 mile radius of our little town was probably a surprise to the victim. The goblin didn't call ahead and advertise his intentions.

A few years back, a Rio Bravo restaurant in Macon, GA, experienced an armed robbery at closing time. The remaining patrons were robbed individually at the tables where they sat and had just eaten. The women were taken apart from their male escorts/husbands and raped. There is no place where the right to carry can be justifiably prohibited. Gov't building, public gathering, church, you name it, but it is the law in many locales.

Do what you have to do to protect your family and property. Conclealed is concealed and Rambo is a movie character.
 
Ah, so I have caused a stir in our waters ... well, good ... these are issues we need to confront and debate because this very thread is a microcosm for the state of affairs even within our own community ... that is, we have a great deal of variation in interpretation of 2A rights even among this "pro 2A" crowd. I have posted this incident on several other boards with similar results. Unfortunately, I believe that it is this lack of unity that is holding us back from progress. Thus, it looks like we have lots of work to do within our own ranks before we expect to tackle the task of convincing the antis.
 
Smurfslayer,

Yes, really. Here's a hint, read the sections of Virginia code that deal with criminal trespass. Nothing in 4.1 supercedes them or, as far as I can tell, are applicable (but, given that section 4.1 of the Va. code is enormous, it's possible that I've missed something. Have anything more direct than just the title/chaper?):


"§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-173; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1982, c. 169; 1987, cc. 625, 705; 1991, c. 534; 1998, cc. 569, 684.)"
 
This just in. I got it from my latest VCDL e-mail update:

"1. Outback Steakhouse in Fairfax City is anti-gun
********************************************************

Several of our members and I have had discussions with the manager of
the Outback Steakhouse located at 10060 Lee Hwy, in Fairfax City.
The manager does not want gun owners to carry in his establishment.

He claims that guns and alcohol don't mix. But in the same breath he
said he allows off duty police to carry there. When asked why THEIR
guns mix with alcohol, he had no response, of course.

That whole "guns and alcohol don't mix" argument is just so much
hooey - permit holders are eating and not drinking alcohol. These
restaurants should be a whole lot more concerned about serving people
with car keys, but they are not. That speaks volumes for hypocrisy
of the whole argument.

The manager was pleasant, but just unwilling to think logically about
his position. HOWEVER, other Outback restaurants in the NoVA area
don't have a 'no guns' policy. I have open carried in several
Outbacks in Richmond without any problems whatsoever."


Once again, I think it's time to make an enmasse trip to the Outback in Fairfax for the reasons I've stated.
 
I was eating breakfast at the local Waffle House. Halfway through, I noticed a sign saying "No Concealed Firearms" or some such(this was a few years ago). I got up and left. Went home and emailed the headquarters. I was told it was policy. I said I would find another palce to eat from now on.
 
Lets try this for a hypothesis- I walk into the restaurant carrying my house gun- an 18' side by side which is my personal self defence gun, put it on the chair beside me and eat. Anybody feeling nervous?

Just because I have a legal right to do something does not mean I will do it or make it right or others will feel comfortable - lets take an example that I think most of us will agree on. For civil liberties reasons sodomy is legal in my state but I don't imbide and I view it as a disgusting practice.
 
Not an appropriate comparison, Lawyer Daggit.

A holstered gun and one held in hand are completely different. If you walk into an establishment with a gun in hand you're likely committing a brandishing offense.

Carrying a holstered gun is NOT brandishing in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

The sexual comparison is also uniquely off point. Unless, of course, it's your practice to sodomize someone on the table at your local waffle house.

What? You don't practice sodomy? Check the definition of the word. It's very likely that you don't have a clue what that word can cover, even in a heterosexual relationship.
 
Lawyer,

How do you be reasonable with folks who want to take you right to own a firearm away ? That is the end game for some and they will do it a little at a time.

I imagine there were reasonable firearms owners in the UK that fell for that too.

Also a private business owner has the right to do what he wants to within the law in his business. I also have the right to not spend my money with him.
 
Mike:

Here's a snippet from 4.1-100:

"Public place" means any place, building, or conveyance to which the public has, or is permitted to have, access, including restaurants, soda fountains, hotel dining areas, lobbies, and corridors of hotels, and any highway, street, lane, park, or place of public resort or amusement.


Can you trespass in a public place? ;)

It was this very section of code which permitted Fairfax to do their "sobriety raids". Think about it, absent this definition, how could there be any reasonable enforcement & regulation (of alcohol) absent some constitutional violation? If you assert it's private, then how does ABC enforce the law?

For the sake of arguments, think of it as analogous to a park (while it's open)... can you trespass there...
Generally of course...
 
Kony's right

This thread illustrates how divided we've allowed ourselves to become on issues like this, dove hunting, lawsuit protection - you name it.

How do we fix it? We won't as long as we have those among us who think:

Open carry is bad
Dove hunting is for cruel red necks who hate wildlife
there's no need for manufacturer lawsuit protection.
full autos should only be for law enforcement.

and the list goes on.

If we dont' stand up to these things when they happen, in unity, they will spread.

Why not this -
I'll support your <insert pro-rkba cause here> for your support on open carry.

If you like to shoot doves, great, I hear they're tasty. If you think manufacturers need protection - ok, I'm with that.

Now, all I ask in return is that you support us here...

Divide and conquer is a time honored and succesful military and political strategy and we have allowed our enemies to get away with it for too long.
 
"Can you trespass in a public place?"

Yes, yes you can. After I thought about it a bit more I suspected that this is what you were going to come back with.

That something is a "public place" does not mean absolute, unfettered access is a Constitutional right.

People can, and have been routinely, banned from places such as swimming pools, shopping malls, park facilities, schools and playgrounds, etc. People are routinely barred from public housing (read government subsidized) in Virginia for gang behavior, drugs, etc.

That includes bars, taverns, public houses, restaurants, etc. One bar I occasionally visit has banned a number of people over the past several years for fighting or other infractions. Any attempt by them to reenter the premises will result in their arrest for trespass.

Please read the section of the criminal trespass statute I've bolded above.

Next time you're out and around a school in Fairfax County, seek out some of the blue signs that they've posted. It lays out that the school grounds are closed after dark, and that anyone on the school grounds after dark can be charged with trespass.
 
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