Outback Steakhouse in Fairfax does NOT want our money

An example of trespassing in a generally public place in Virginia, as upheld by the US Supreme Court.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=va&vol=1011728&invol=1

City of Lynchburg Code

http://www.ci.lynchburg.va.us/home/index.asp?page=2638

From the New York State Bar Association, in a handbook for reporters (reference section B)

http://www.nysba.org/Content/Conten...rnalist/Legal_Handbook_(Chapter_Eighteen).htm

From the website of a lawfirm practicing in Northern Virginia

http://virginiacriminallawyers.vatrafficlaw.com/virginiacriminallaw_trespass.html

Two operative sentences from the above... "For instance, places of business can request a person not to return to their location. Even a city can request that an individual not return to a certain park or parks."
 
Theres a mom and pop place around here that the owner packs openly and I love it!!! cops go in there and everyone talks about guns for hours!

I tip very well there, that's how they stay in business. the food is cheap (6 - 7 dollars for a meal) but their service earns them 10 - 15 in tip, I've seen people drop $20 tip for a 7 dollar meal there. It isnt rocket science, treat your customers with respect, and watch your earnings skyrocket... a good word spreads fast. and bad words spread faster!
 
I remember Hicks and more importantly the sneaky, sinister affiliation it has with RRHA... Here's a quote from Hicks:
<quoting Morales>
"The ordinance defined "public place" as "the public way and
any other location open to the public, whether publicly or
privately owned." 527 U.S. at 45-47.
The Supreme Court recognized that
"the freedom to loiter for innocent purposes is part
of the 'liberty' protected by the Due Process Clause
of the Fourteenth Amendment. We have expressly
identified this 'right to remove from one place to
another according to inclination' as 'an attribute
of personal liberty' protected by the
Constitution. . . . Indeed, it is apparent that an
individual's decision to remain in a public place of
his choice is as much a part of his liberty as the
freedom of movement inside frontiers that is 'a part
of our heritage,' . . . or the right to move 'to
whatsoever place one's own inclination may direct'
identified in Blackstone's Commentaries. 1 W.
Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England 130
(1765)."


Now that said I am in no way saying you have some <tinfoil hat time> unfettered right to go whereever you darn well please </tinfoil hat time>, rather that the issue is much less clear.

Lynchburg's law seems to say that you may be barred by city staff for whatever inclination they have. So in that spirit, they could come up to anyone open carrying and order you to leave... Don't hand me any preemption talk either :barf: As long as they say "Mr. Kony, you need to leave"... "no, it has nothing to do with your gun, you just need to leave"...

What if you are interrupted while eating at an ABC restaurant. You are asked to take the gun to the car, you politetly decline, police are called and you boldly proclaim But wait, my good friend Smurfslayer told me this is a public place... Ok, sure it is, and you are going about your lawful business, with legitimate purpose to be there... You can either leave, or decline and force the issue. Let's say the responding officer is a smart one, and a Champps veteran who calls the magistrate - WTF is this Kony guy talking about 'public place'?

Of course, by the time that conversation is over, you're long since done eating.

I *think* that there is still common law trespass in VA. I understand the VA Code recognizes the common law where it does not conflict with constitutional or statutory law. I'm not sure on this point, but failing this, you would be certain to be receiving a summons for a breach of the peace.

Of course the above would do zero to advance our rights, I am merely commenting.

Incidentally, the alert was issued after I'd notified PVC that the regional manager had told me via phone that _ALL_ Virginia Outbacks were offlimits. Corporate subsequently notified me via email, that not just all Virginia Outbacks prohibit guns, but all Outbacks _period_.


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Kadow [mailto:JoeKadow@OUTBACK.com]
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2005 12:20 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Comment from the outback.com website


Mr. XXXXXX,

This policy applies to all our restaurants. If some of our managers have
invited you to dine with firearms, I will clarify our policy to them.

It is not our policy to "completely usurp everyone's right to protect
themselves", as you say. It is our policy that we do not allow firearms
in our restaurants. We have not seen any need for customers to protect
themselves in our restaurants by carrying firearms.

Thank you,

Joe Kadow
 
Two ironies here.

How do you like the latest Outback TV ad with the two cops?

And, Australia banned firearms...so I guess they just want to follow suit. :rolleyes:
 
IMHO all steak chains don't have decent steaks (Ruth's Chris and Morton's excluded) and most corporations will not openly support the NRA and CCW laws.

Locally family owned (owner operated) restaurants normally have the best steaks and food overall.

We should support our home owned establisments not the corporations. They are the people more apt to support us.
 
We should support our home owned establisments. They are the people more apt to support us.
Click to expand...

Cheers, whistles, clapping, the crowd roars more more more

They are also the ones that will keep the money local for the most part. They are also more likely to reflect the local culture. This goes for most business, not just food....
 
Smurfslayer,

You're arguing points of Virginia law that have been argued, and LOST, numerous times since the criminal trespassing statute was adopted. Ergo, in Virginia law, they are clear.

Unfortunately I don't have access to Lexis Nexis or a Virginia legal database other than what can be generally found on the internet, but numerous cases have been brought against the trespassing in "public places" (including restaurants and bars) and all have been lost.
 
Smurfslayers argument about us 'being divided' is not a problem, our society caters for a variety of different opinions. Even the US founding fathers often were not of one mind- hence the debates.

The problem occurs IMHO when people do not have different views.

I realise my views are not accepted by the majority here and are probably viewed as 'too liberal' but I respect the views of others here.
 
Respecting opposing views is the biggest load of bunk I can think of. To state that you "respect the views of others" is pointless; it's academic.

If you respect the views of someone who disagrees with you fundamentally, does it change anything about how you will act, how you will vote, what you will throw your support behind?

Anyone who has one view and it is in opposition to another view DOES NOT respect that other view. If he had such respect for the other view, THAT would BE his view!

I don't respect the view of anyone who says that I should have no right to own guns, and to carry them for my defense. Why should I "respect" that view? Why is it owed respect? I plainly view it as utterly WRONG. Still I should respect it? Why? If it was truly worthy of my respect, it would be my operating view and belief! I choose the opposite view and belief precisely BECAUSE I don't respect the merits of that view.

Saying "I respect your [diametrically opposed] viewpoint/opinion/belief" is just PC lip-service. It means nothing. It might as well not even ever be said.

-blackmind
 
What if he'd said, "I respect your right to believe what you wish?" That's generally what "I respect your beliefs is intended to mean. It's a colloquialism, perhaps not literally true.
 
Outback ROCKS!!!

Just so you know.....
I had 1 and only 1 good meal the entire 12 months I spent in Iraq. It was provided free of charge by Outback Steakhouse in our mess hall on Camp Marez, Mosul. Steaks were awsome, waitresses (yep, they came too) were beautiful and let me tell you word got around so fast that an M1 tank platoon came from about 50 miles down the road to partake!!!

Thank You Outback!!!

Shawn
 
What if he'd said, "I respect your right to believe what you wish?" That's generally what "I respect your beliefs is intended to mean. It's a colloquialism, perhaps not literally true.
Click to expand...

Well, I think it's most common that people "respect others' right to believe what they wish" and then turn around and think to themselves, "But you're an absolute IDIOT for believing that way."

It's a tautology: If I thought that your view made sense and had merit (i.e. it was "respect-worthy"), then IT would be the view that I hold, instead of the one I DO hold.

Of course, there are gray areas. I don't look at someone whose favorite color is red and think to myself, "God, what an idiot -- everyone knows BLUE is the best color!"

But if their view is, say, that only the police and military should have guns, then yeah, I don't respect their opinion. I understand and I agree that they have a RIGHT to their opinion, but I refuse to grant that all opinions have equal merit. Plenty of them are based on some seriously F-ed up flawed thinking, mixed with unchecked emotion and a heap of crappy logic.

-blackmind
 
an M1 tank platoon came from about 50 miles down the road to partake!!!
Click to expand...

I'm certainly glad you got to enjoy the meal as you were serving, but...

this made me wonder, how many gallons of middle-east petroleum were expended to move the tank platoon to the steaks? Would it not have been more economical to somehow get the steaks to the tank platoon? And do you mean they drove the tanks there, or just that the guys in the tank platoon got into one or two trucks and came 50 miles?

I don't mean to sound down on it -- the least we can do is see to it that our troops eat well when they're off in combat -- or, well, at any time, actually.

Heaven knows I myself enjoy good eating!

-blackmind
 
What ever happened to the days when an honest man wore his gun on his hip for the honest world to see (and the dishonest world decided not to mess with him)?
 
Blackmind,
They drove the tanks (4) there. The amount of fuel burned by 4 tanks is nothing compared to the total used by the army every day. And besides by driving down the main highway those tanks were actually doing a service....heck they have a better chance of survival when getting hit with an IED than a truck, hummer or Stryker!

Shawn
 
Mike - I've only run across 1 case which mentioned 4.1-100, as a data point as I recall which was at appeals or SC level. Not to say it isn't out there, but it's certainly not a common reference in other cases if it is.

Lawyer... Where do I begin :confused:

The very premise that you think it inappropriate to carry in restaurant seems to say that you do not respect the opinion of others on the appropriateness of the action. We are divided if you and those who share your view, but purport to support the right to keep and bear arms don't lift a finger to help Kony, and guys like him when they encounter these victim enablement zones.

So... Everybody who called, phoned, emailed, faxed or communicated your displeasure with Outback over Kony's mistreatment raise their hands...

<raises hand>
looks around...
doesn't see any company...
puts hand back down...
</raises hand>

In all the posting that's gone on here... Mr. Kadow could've gotten an earful... Instead, we sit here in front of the keyboard patting ourselves on our collective backs because S397 passed the senate, while one more business completely usurps your ability to protect yourself. Instead of letting that business know they're going to face financial penalties for this, we sit here and pontificate about minutae and quibble about viewpoints.

Think about this the next time a hunting restriction is proposed, or shooting range regulations come down. Think about this more regulations are placed on waterfowl hunting. When there's no outcry from guys like Smurfslayer, who can string a few intelligible sentences together into a fairly articulable argument. Think back to this thread, when everybody could've helped out a fellow forum member, and friend. Think about how much you could've helped then, when the new regulation passes, a new infringement occurs and nobody helped.

Shawn:

I'm damn glad they did that for you guys, and good on them for it. Too bad MORE tanks didn't show up. Just remember that you (plural), like many of us swore an oath, and Outback corporate's actions, spearheaded by Mr. Kadow above in effect SPIT ON everything our Armed Forces fight for.

my few pieces of eight.
 
"I had 1 and only 1 good meal the entire 12 months I spent in Iraq. It was provided free of charge by Outback Steakhouse in our mess hall on Camp Marez, Mosul. Steaks were awsome, waitresses (yep, they came too) were beautiful and let me tell you word got around so fast that an M1 tank platoon came from about 50 miles down the road to partake!!! "

That's mighty nice of them.

But did they make you keep your guns in your Humvees so everyone "felt safe" while dining?
 
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