Outback Steakhouse in Fairfax does NOT want our money

Maybe establishments should have a gun check at the door like
a coat check they used to have them in some saloons and taverns.


In this day and age, the primary concern would be, "Who's gonna be responsible for loss or theft of guns from the gun check room?"

And such a room would be a target for organized criminals who would stage an invasion robbery and harvest the room full of loaded guns.

-blackmind
 
Rights are important. So is common sence if we want to protect them. I don't know Kony from Adam, I am sure he is sane, but I do not know this for certain, I have no idea if he is safe with a firearm, I don't know if he has a drinking or drug problem, I also do not know why he is carrying in a restaurant at night.

I would not stay in the restaurant and eat and I am sure a lot of diners would not as well.

If you want to carry in such a situation keep it out of sight.

Remember the Supreme Court has made it clear it is not an absolute right- and I respect that firearm ownership is regarded by the second amendment as a final means of protecting US democracy- as such you have a right to own firearms - but I fail to see what nexus packing in a diner has to do with a 'well regulated militia' as we are 'not at war' at the moment and a 'minuteman'- ready in a minute argument does not apply.

I think if people do not respond with some sensitivity to the desires of other diners your governments will restrict carry rights. Sorry but we have to be sensible about this.

HoLy CraP we actually have here a TFL member who believes the Collectivist Model of the Second Amendment protection! :eek: :barf:

Where have you been, Daggit? That is the most thoroughly debunked load of horses#!t in Constitutional history.

"We have to be sensible about this"? Sensible like what, "sensible gun control"? "Sensible waiting periods"? "Sensible ammunition capacity limits"? "Sensible gun bans"?

You argue for the other side. That's where you belong -- your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. You give clear evidence of thinking like an anti. I note in particular how you seem to think that the same guy carrying openly would drive you from the restaurant in a tizzy of personal discomfort, while you say that it'd be okay as long as you couldn't see or be aware of his gun. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

-blackmind
 
I am not anti at all.

I see the duck walk, and I hear the duck quack. But the duck swears it is not a duck.

If a cop walked into the restaurant carrying openly I would be comfortable with this- I know he has been trained.

Fine. Do you know whether he has a drug or alcohol problem or not? Lots of cops do...

You seem to be anxious about NDs in the restaurant from openly carried handguns. Why? If they never leave the holsters -- and they should not -- how are they going to go off?

And are you claiming that cops never have NDs? If we go into cop shooting ranges, will we not see holes in the ceilings?


I resent the suggestion I should turn in my permit- there are obviously people here who don't care about one basic freedom but not about another-freedom of speech and other people's right to having an opinion- I respect the fact that you have a contrary opinion even if I do not agree with it. Why can't you respect mine. I am not asking you to agree with me, just to debate with civility.

That was a right-fine speech right through the part where you attempt to deny him the legitimacy of his opinion even as you ask him to respect your opinion.

After all, he is expressing his opinion that people who think as you do are not really in the "pro-gun" camp. You espouse positions that align nicely with those of anti-gunners. Now you protest his opinion that this is the case, and call foul, claiming that you resent his suggestion? What, you are entitled to the protection of your opinions, but he is not?

I agree with him. You have double-standards about guns and carry. You claim that cops don't worry you, but some guy carrying openly does, even though cops now and then are lawbreakers, drunks, drug addicts, just like any joe-schmoe. You claim that a guy carrying openly would make you so nervous you would leave, but you can manage to double-think yourself into being comfortable even if the same guy and all those around you were carrying guns you couldn't see and didn't know about.

He called you a duck, and you don't want to be found out as a duck, but it's not his fault that your waddling and quacking gave you away.

-blackmind
 
Anyone up for a group trip to the NRA Range followed by an armed excursion to the Fairfax Outback for dinner?

A group of 8 or 10 potential patrons walking out is going to make a much larger financial message than 2 people walking out.

You get a group of that size together, all wearing open-carried handguns, and you will have a phalanx of S.W.A.T. team members there in minutes with MP5s drawn.

Do you think for a second that the restaurant management would not see that group coming and say to himself, "Yes, I may know they're legal, but my other customers will FREAK if they sit down in here, so I have to get this defused right away and the COPS are the ones to handle that task, not me against 10 armed dudes upset about the infringement of their rights"?

I think it's a newsmaker, that's for sure. And there would probably be arrests and legal fees before the dust settled.

This is one to write letters about, not stage an armed sit-in over.

-blackmind
 
Blackmind -

I disagree with you. The VDCL often goes out in groups of 6+ to go out to eat (Open Carry) in local restaurants. There has never been an incident of SWAT men coming in with MP5s drawn. Can you name any incident in the country of this occuring where Open Carry was allowed? (Arrests etc.)
 
Duxman, no, I can't name any such incidents -- I have not followed or researched the practice.

I was just offering that if a horde of open-carriers descended on an Outback Steakhouse that just recently had ejected a patron for open carry, the manager(s) might be really nervous if they see a whole bunch of such people come in.

The S.W.A.T. scenario was hyperbole on my part. Do you really think that IF a restaurant manager objects to open carry in his establishment (obviously, the restaurants patronized by the VDCL are not opposed), he is going to be keen on taking them all on, even just verbally, and telling them to take a hike? We're talking about a guy who already has seen a customer take offense and state that he is taking his business elsewhere due to the restaurant's policy. Now 10 guys come in, all armed openly. He is concerned about the reaction of his 150 other diners should they see all these guns (many of them won't know that it's perfectly legal in that jurisdiction). I'd bet that he entertains the thought of calling the police and saying, "I am about to have to confront 10 armed men about carrying guns into my restaurant, please send help."

I DO NOT AGREE. I BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE FREE TO DINE THERE IF THEIR BEHAVIOR IS LEGAL. But I'm trying to gauge the restauranteur's reaction.

-blackmind
 
Blackmind - I used to be in the restaurant business - 5.5 years. Most managers of sit down restaurants know to piss one customer is pissing off a potential 100, so they try to accomodate them as best as possible.

Even in the outback scenario - the manager was very polite in asking the client to leave his gun in his car and come back and eat. I would think a larger group would incite the same type of response. Thats what I would do if I was the manager of this restaurant. Calling the cops would only get more customers upset and possibly leave.

Most managers are hard working people who put in excess of 80+ hours of week with little pay to show for it. I would venture a guess that some of them (like me) are pro-gun, but have to follow corporate rules. Lets give them some credit. Calling the cops to something that is not illegal - is not a smart move. Especially since in a group of armed 10+ patrons - 1 or more of them could be off duty law enforcement.

Now if the group that came in appeared intoxicated, there could be some calls to the police. But clean cut, well dressed armed men and women, there should be a polite conversation about corporate rules.
 
How many out there are old enough to remember the massacre at the McDonalds in So California (Chula Vista, I believe). (I Have since been corrected, it was San Ysidro)

A gunman walked in, opened fire and 20+ dead. Here is the real question. If there were customers carrying weapons in that store that day, how many would he have been able to kill? If one or two had a means to defend themselves how long would it be before he started taking rounds himself. I believe far fewer would have died that day. Prior to then, the only thing dangerous in McDonalds was the food.

It is also possible that the manager of the Outback asked the only person in the place that was carrying legally to leave and several more illegally carried weapons remained.
 
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"You get a group of that size together, all wearing open-carried handguns, and you will have a phalanx of S.W.A.T. team members there in minutes with MP5s drawn."

Based on what do you make that statement?

VCLD groups that large frequently go to restaurants in Northern Virginia and have NEVER been met with a SWAT team. They often have reports on their Eat Out Armed gatherings in the VCDL e-mails.


EDIT: I see Duxman has already addressed this. Good.
 
You get a group of that size together, all wearing open-carried handguns, and you will have a phalanx of S.W.A.T. team members there in minutes with MP5s drawn

Ha ha, you're funny. Obviously you don't know any better. I join these guys every now and then and we get no real harassment from anyone. One time the manager actually took a break to chat with us about his gun collection...

The cops are (mostly) well aware of the OC law in Virginia and even if they are dispatched out for a "guys with guns" call they see a few guys peacefully eating dinner, shrug and say no law is broken. After all, the legislature forces CCW holders to do this if they wish to carry.

It's not like we walk in there all scraggly, wearing black and looking shady. Button-down shirts and slacks are the usual attire. Knowing that the Outback corporate frowns on OC, I seriously doubt us "hordes of open carrying" folks will do as such to do a 'show of force' thing. It's not what OC is about. If they don't want guns in their restaraunts, fine. Post a sign, end of discussion.

Oh...and Smurfslayer is *far* from anti. Trust me. :rolleyes:
 
To a merchant, the best way to make a point is to demonstrate how much money they stand to lose.

The best way to do that is with warm bodies EXITING a place of business without purchasing anything, but having occupied their staff's time.

As they say, time is money.

Maybe such a demonstration won't change the corporation's mind.

But simply throwing up your hands and going "it's not going to do any good to even try" is worse than useless. It's reprehensible.

Were that to be the attitude du jour, blacks would still be drinking at water fountains labeled "colored" and sitting in the back of the bus.
 
Chris, I wasn't saying that smurf was the one who seems anti -- I was talking about lawyer daggit. He seems anti, to me.

What does VCDL stand for?

-blackmind
 
If I was in a situation where I thought I was at risk I would carry. Frankly I would not eat in a restaurant if I figured I would need to carry- why, because I want to have a quiet drink and enjoy myself, and I realise that alcohol and firearms do not mix.

What a lot of guys need to understand is that there are degrees of belief in rights between those who seek to abolish firearms at one end and the card carrying red neck at the other ( a few of the latter are I believe in our cyber presence).

I started off with extreme views about the right to bear arms- that in a liberal democratic state a person should be able to do whatever they liked as long as they were not a felon.

Twenty five years of post graduate life experience in the real world have taught me that the extreme view is not sustainable.
 
Blackmind I do not believe in the collectivist interpretation of the second amendment. I think what was clearly in mind when the founding fathers had drafted the amendment was that each member of the population constitutes 'the militia'.

I am of the view that every member of the population should own and know how to use firearms and carry them in situations of need, however packing in a restaurant is not one of them.

Hypothetically if someone went into the restaurant to rob the place I would not want to be in the situation where someone who is probably untrained opens fire with the result that civilians get injured. If someone is carrying and it the firearm is concealed it is easier for the armed person to make a decision if this is an appropriate time to make his move rather than have to because the robber knows he is armed.
 
No, it's not sustainable as long as everyone is charging headlong toward their own pleasure/aggrandisement/gratification with absolutely no morals, ethics, or concern for anyone around them but themselves.

But if people exercised their freedom at the same time exercising maturity and self-restraint, then yes, it would be sustainable.

But the ultra-glorification and elevation of a me-first, self-gratifying attitude, which is being forced into the minds of the people via our entertainment and media industries, is causing a degradation of character like the world has never seen. I feel that we are in deep trouble.

-blackmind
 
Don't get me wrong, I am as big a supporter of the right to carry as anyone out there. After all, it is a matter of rights. Having looked at the Virginia Law, however, it gives the property owner the right to exclude guns from his premises if they wish. It sounds like the owner was merely excercising that right. At that point it falls to the patron to make a choice. I personnaly would leave. It is apparent that the policy of Outback doesn't hurt their business though.
 
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