Lasers ... useful for a fight, or a good training tool only?
- Thread starter WildBill45
- Start date
Maybe part of the problem here is, you dont see anyone from the laser group stepping up with actual "field use" experience to back up the claims, military rifle use aside, and even there, I have yet to get a definitive answer there as to just how they are really using those lasers, just the same old, SWAT and the military "use" them.
Most all the "use" you do hear about them in the civilian arena, is done shooting stationary targets in perfect laser conditions.
I still say the best way short of shooting each other, is to get both sides on the range in a little force of force and prove each other wrong. How else are you going to do it? No one will believe the other side, until one fires up the other. Even then, while there will be answers, Im sure there will be plenty of excuses, there always are.
The saber rattling comes from both sides too, even if it is "edited" later.
And youre right, its annoying either way.
WildBill45
New member
To AK103K
The problem with that AK is:
The laser guys would will cheat! Even if we let them turn on their laser first, they will shoot via. Point & Shoot, and claim they were using the laser!
How can you, me, or we prove they didn't???
I think the laser guys need to put on their "Big Boy Pants" and just admit they are would be sent back to the minors in such a duel ... AAA !
The problem with that AK is:
The laser guys would will cheat! Even if we let them turn on their laser first, they will shoot via. Point & Shoot, and claim they were using the laser!
How can you, me, or we prove they didn't???
I think the laser guys need to put on their "Big Boy Pants" and just admit they are would be sent back to the minors in such a duel ... AAA !
You bet I'm gonna cheat. That has been my whole point all along. When I shoot, I'm gonna use what works;
If lasers work, I'll use lasers.
If point shooting works, I'll use point shooting
If sights work, I'll use sights.
If that's cheating so be it. I have tools and I'll use what ever tools work.
You also proved my other point, you know nothing of lasers, My laser is turned on when I grip my gun. I don't have to turn on anything.
Ah so a lack of experience makes makes lasers useless... Yes obviously because none of us stormed a building with a laser on specifically a pistol, that makes them useless.... Flawed logic....
Certainly our lack of definitive proof ends the debate and they must inherently be useless.... I dont have experience in heart surgery either, does that make heart surgery useless....
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WildBill45
New member
To kraigwy
This isn't about YOU! It is about everybody. My dad's new Bodyguard laser requires a manual "Turn On!," as do many lasers. So I guess it is you who is jumping the gun, eh?
This isn't personal, so get your panties out of that bunched-up knot and play nice, this is a learning process for all, and a mean teacher doesn't sell well! Thanks for proving my point about laser cheaters as well!
This isn't about YOU! It is about everybody. My dad's new Bodyguard laser requires a manual "Turn On!," as do many lasers. So I guess it is you who is jumping the gun, eh?
This isn't personal, so get your panties out of that bunched-up knot and play nice, this is a learning process for all, and a mean teacher doesn't sell well! Thanks for proving my point about laser cheaters as well!
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I never said it made them useless. All I said was, basically, wheres the "proof" they are as good as we are being told here. I still havent seen "real world" evidence thats the case. Who here has used one in a "real" fight? How about force on force? How much use or help were they "really" in either?
Theyve been around awhile now, and like most of the other electronics, have gone down in size and seem to have more applications, but still, you really dont hear of any instances of them being used to the effect they are touted.
Somebody must be studying it. Where are the results?
You keep saying the military uses them, how do they use them, as a weapons sight? A designator? Are they visible, and used for daytime use? Nighttime use? Are they IR and used solely with NVG's, or are they visible in the dark? If so, do they compromise you because of it? What?
We have police and SWAT people around here. How many use them in that capacity? What have the results been? Are there any results even being kept?
Im all ears to hear how great they are, if youve got something "real" to hear. Dont misunderstand either, I have spent some time with a couple, and while they werent the latest and greatest, I still got to see pretty much what they do and maybe dont do, depending on what youre doing. Do they have a use, maybe, but I didnt see them to be the wonder weapon some seem to think they are, and personally, Im not convinced they are worth the cost and effort. Yet anyways.
WildBill45
New member
No it doesn't make heart surgery useless, but inexperience may make some commentary and opine on that subject ... useless.
Would you trust your life to a surgical procedure that has no success stats available???
Nor would I trust such a device ... MMMMMMMMM.... Lasers, oh yea, now I remember what it was.
Well, its seems you both have one (whos is bigger is another matter 
), or access to one, so whos to say who has more "actual" real world experience with one?
I have yet to hear from anyone here who has used one other than on a static range shooting at paper targets, so we still really dont know.
), or access to one, so whos to say who has more "actual" real world experience with one?I have yet to hear from anyone here who has used one other than on a static range shooting at paper targets, so we still really dont know.
WildBill45
New member
Robb228
Since you can't grasp the concepts discussed in this thread, you wait like a vulture here to parse my words ad nauseam! The dichotomy between theory and execution escapes you, and others like you who act in a like pedantic manner with this proclivity in attacking such concepts that escape your vision. Your petulant behavior is not appreciated as you are neither funny nor original in your attempt to be grandiloquent with your lacking style. Your words reveal your lacrimose personality, but please do not shed tears for me.
Let me be clear. My father has a laser on his gun … period. Nowhere did I say that was the end of my experience, which was a reference to ONE style of operation system only, period. Was this unclear in any way?
Since you can't grasp the concepts discussed in this thread, you wait like a vulture here to parse my words ad nauseam! The dichotomy between theory and execution escapes you, and others like you who act in a like pedantic manner with this proclivity in attacking such concepts that escape your vision. Your petulant behavior is not appreciated as you are neither funny nor original in your attempt to be grandiloquent with your lacking style. Your words reveal your lacrimose personality, but please do not shed tears for me.
Let me be clear. My father has a laser on his gun … period. Nowhere did I say that was the end of my experience, which was a reference to ONE style of operation system only, period. Was this unclear in any way?
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I spend quite a bit of time at the local PD range so I get to see a good cross section of LE when they qualify. I have many friends and a few relatives in LE. NONE of them carry or even own a laser. I know of no local or county LE here that use one either, including SWAT.
FWIW.
What do you gain with the laser? They are good for proactively hunting bad guys in the dark. What do you loose? $300 that could go for training. A hardware solution to a software problem. It's always easier to buy something than to do something.
A question: Do bad guys go around looking at their chests, constantly checking for red dots?
According to at least one cop: "I put lasers on the chest of bad guys before, if they noticed it, they were not impressed".
From Gabe Suarez: "I have been running force-on-force classes now for well over five years and have yet to see anyone use a laser successfully".
FWIW.
What do you gain with the laser? They are good for proactively hunting bad guys in the dark. What do you loose? $300 that could go for training. A hardware solution to a software problem. It's always easier to buy something than to do something.
A question: Do bad guys go around looking at their chests, constantly checking for red dots?
According to at least one cop: "I put lasers on the chest of bad guys before, if they noticed it, they were not impressed".
From Gabe Suarez: "I have been running force-on-force classes now for well over five years and have yet to see anyone use a laser successfully".
WildBill45
New member
smince
I have your back on that one. Some of these folks with a waspish temper only attack because they have zero experience in life & life fights or decisions, and you can tell by the way they write. They can quote others all day long, but have zero original thoughts on the matter, and zero experience in combat. And, even worse, they attack others who do.
If you like your laser GREAT! KEEP IT... The economy needs folks buying things, you are at the very least a patriot! Just don't expect to see real street cops, not desk jockeys, using one!
I have your back on that one. Some of these folks with a waspish temper only attack because they have zero experience in life & life fights or decisions, and you can tell by the way they write. They can quote others all day long, but have zero original thoughts on the matter, and zero experience in combat. And, even worse, they attack others who do.
If you like your laser GREAT! KEEP IT... The economy needs folks buying things, you are at the very least a patriot! Just don't expect to see real street cops, not desk jockeys, using one!
Why do you assume people here arent veterans. I guarntee you Im not a stranger to being ambushed or repeling an ambush. I have done good and terrible things in the name of my country in a lawful manner.
I have been there done that and got the tee shirt. Where have you been and what have you done?
I have been there done that and got the tee shirt. Where have you been and what have you done?
I certainly hope that wasn't directed at me.
But I degress.
Cops and Lasers:
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/CT_grips.htm
I wont post the quotes from the SWAT commander in that article, I'm sure if one's interested he/she will read the article.
WildBill45
New member
kraigwy
It was not! It was not to 99% of the nice gun folks here, and not to most who disagree in a proper way. It was for a couple who get a little nasty when it wasn't required, and they know who they are!
We can all agree to disagree, but personal attacks over and over with no real point is a waste of my time, and theirs...
It was not! It was not to 99% of the nice gun folks here, and not to most who disagree in a proper way. It was for a couple who get a little nasty when it wasn't required, and they know who they are!
We can all agree to disagree, but personal attacks over and over with no real point is a waste of my time, and theirs...