Lasers ... useful for a fight, or a good training tool only?

[AK103K]

Like Kilmer said in Tombstone...... "and I have two guns, one for both of you"

By the time I hit 80 (and I was worried about hitting 30 ) The gun itself may be the laser. Then again, the cats may be bored by then too, and looking for something else.

The whole reason we go through this is to keep moving ahead, or at least trying to. Some things/people do, some dont, the only way you know what works for you, is try and see. And by try and see, I mean really, "try and see". The only way to know, is do it.

Same goes for how things are done too. Ive seen people at ranges shooting tiny little holes from the hip using a laser and proudly show you and proclaim "do that with iron sights!". Yet ask them to draw and shoot with or without the laser, and they just stand there and look at you like you have two heads. With many people, the thought of a loaded gun pointed anywhere but at a bullseye target downrange is a foreign and scary thing.

But look at those groups.

 

[WildBill45]

mavracer

let me know if you still feal that way when your over 80 and have 20/70 vision in your good eye without your glasses.

Then you may consider not using a gun for defense, as you could kill someone that you know, but couldn't see in various scenarios. This may apply to riding your favorite motorcycle or a car if is bad enough! No one wants to lose their independence, but the welfare of others must be part of that decision as well...

Ask Bill Hickok, he shot his own deputy for just that reason. There comes a time when you are unsafe by conditions not a fault of your own! It is a fact of life!

 

[WildBill45]

I think the results of the poll speak for themselves. More participants chose option three (A great combat tool for self defense) than all the other choices -- COMBINED

These results may be more of taking sides issue than results from experienced people making a fair and open selection. You could poll some folks about the dark side of the moon, and they would have opinion, and tell you which side was better!!!

I just shot a qualification course so I take advantage of the Law Enforcement Safety ACT ... H.R. 218 ... whereas active and retired law enforcement officers can carry concealed nationwide, even in hostile places like N.J., DC, NYC, etc... The instructor is a Federal Agent, and is an instructor, and is a lead guy in many entry raids. He also thinks lasers are not something he would consider for use in those REAL and relevant, right now enforcement activities. He doesn't even like the Red Dot sights, as he, as I, doesn't trust his life to battery powered or otherwise electronic devices.

When I was in the US Navy, I was an AQ, which meant I worked on all the high tech weapon systems, and our squadron, VA-122 @ Leemore Naval Air Station, developed the first "Heads-up" displays on the Corsair A-7E aircraft. Again, let me repeat, I do not trust electronics with my life in a gunfight ... PERIOD. Sometimes the smoke gets out of electronic devices, and when you see smoke they don't work; this could happen at any time, anytime!

You do as you wish, since most folks use these electronic devices for other less dangerous uses, and to have to have the latest Très chic gun-gadget that is bling for the shooter.

AGAIN, I have no problem with you using whatever you choose, AS LONG as you not my backup. So have a ball, and don't point that laser in someone's eyes!

 

[kraigwy]

Wildbill:

You still haven't addressed the point of most of the pro-laser comments.

Where is it written that when one chooses to put a laser on his/her pistol that that person can no longer use his/her pistol's sights? Where is it written that one cannot "point-shoot" when there is a laser on the pistol?

A good example, I'm not going to give up my power saw because I may not have electricty, nor am I going to give up my hand saw.

Why can't you understand that there are people that believe there are differant tools for differant jobs.

We all can come up with firearms instructors who have opinions on this or that. I've been a LE fireams instructor since the 70s and though I'm retired I still have my certification. Your fed instructor says the laser has no place, I say it does.

Who's to say who is right or wrong, all that tells us is that we have two people who disagree. There are no two people who can agree on everything.

I contend, since we firearm instructors can't agree, that its up to the individual to study the situation, examine all options, and make their own choice.

 

[Rob228]

I used battery powered optics on all three of my combat tours, and will continue to use them in my future tours. They work. Try something new sometime, you might find that technology is not a bad thing.

 

[dgludwig]

These results may be more of taking sides issue than results from experienced people making a fair and open selection.

I just love how you arbitrarily dismiss anybody else's experiences with your condescending tone. Some of us have pretty good credentials to back up our opinions and don't need you to disparage us with the "I don't want you having my back" insult. With that kind of an attitude the day might come when you get your wish.
I have a suggestion for the next time you start a poll asking about people's experiences and opinions about laser sights and you only need to ask for two responses:
(1) I've never used them, I will never use them and nothing anybody says will ever change my mind. I have too much "on the street" experience to ever consider other options or training protocols that might prove beneficial for me surviving a gun fight.
(2) I think they might play a role in surviving a gun fight in some situations but I don't dare speak my mind for fear of being called an ignorant resident from the "dark side of the moon" whose opinions will never have any merit for people who already know everything.

And for your insightful advice to mavracer who only suggested that a laser sight might be helpful for people with aging eyesight-

Then you may consider not using a gun for defense, as you could kill someone that you know, but couldn't see in various scenarios.

can I assume then when one of those scenarios you speak of (hmm, let's say a gunfight that occurs when it's not daytime) and your eyesight is accordingly compromised, that you will not have a gun with you? I mean, after all, you wouldn't want to shoot the deputy that has your back like Mr. Hickok did, would you?

 

[Rob228]

The instructor is a Federal Agent, and is an instructor, and is a lead guy in many entry raids. He also thinks lasers are not something he would consider for use in those REAL and relevant, right now enforcement activities. He doesn't even like the Red Dot sights, as he, as I, doesn't trust his life to battery powered or otherwise electronic devices.

You would be hard pressed to find any "entry teams" not using some form of red dot or holographic sight. Before you jump on me about that trying to prove me wrong, I spent two and a half years as a team leader at 3rd Reconnaissance Battalion in Okinawa, six months of which was in a direct action platoon, what you would call an "entry job". While the first two weeks of our shooting package were strictly iron sights we moved up in the world to our choice of Aimpoint or Eotech for the last four weeks of the package. Guess what the scores did? They went up. Guess what the reaction speed did? It went up. Eotech batteries were changed daily, as we had a huge budget for AA batteries. Aimpoint batteries were never changed. Your instructor may have been an entry guy back when these new fangled electronic devices were full of gremlins, but he is far behind the times if he does not utilize them.

 

[WildBill45]

Your instructor may have been an entry guy back when these new fangled electronic devices were full of gremlins, but he is far behind the times if he does not utilize them.

He is not my instructor, but he is current doing business as we speak probably. I am not into repeating myself with all the military team comments, which have nothing to do with this posting.

I have not addressed the pro-laser comments??? I beg to differ, my views are my commentary on their comments ... I am not addressing each comment, as I said use what you want, and I was very clear in my perspective. That is all I have to say about that... This isn't a class, this is supposed to a poll.

 

[Rob228]

A poll that you are completely ignoring the results of. It is interesting how you can say that Military and LE don't have a say in this as our jobs are different and then pull from your guy's LE experience. What exactly are you looking for? My comments were exactly in line with what you were bringing up, a refusal on your part to accept that new technology may actually perform, you specifically said

"He doesn't even like the Red Dot sights, as he, as I, doesn't trust his life to battery powered or otherwise electronic devices. " to which I replied with a comment regarding my military experience with these tools. Every time someone brings up something that does not agree with your opinion, you let us know that "others who have done far more dangerous things do not use these tools". Well, guess what, a LOT of us here are those "others" and we do use them.

Oh, by the way, it is NAS Lemoore, not NAS Leemore.

 

[mavracer]

The whole reason we go through this is to keep moving ahead, or at least trying to. Some things/people do, some dont, the only way you know what works for you, is try and see. And by try and see, I mean really, "try and see". The only way to know, is do it.

Guess you must not have aging parents. Hopefully you live long enough, because if you do there comes a point where you you'll be happy to just hold on to the skills you once had.

Same goes for how things are done too. Ive seen people at ranges shooting tiny little holes from the hip using a laser and proudly show you and proclaim "do that with iron sights!". Yet ask them to draw and shoot with or without the laser, and they just stand there and look at you like you have two heads. With many people, the thought of a loaded gun pointed anywhere but at a bullseye target downrange is a foreign and scary thing.

Two sides to every coin. I've seen many who sit a 5-7 yards and spray the target point shooting that look at you with two heads when yo ask if they can hit the target at 25 yards.

More tools avaliable is always a good thing.

Then you may consider not using a gun for defense, as you could kill someone that you know, but couldn't see in various scenarios. This may apply to riding your favorite motorcycle or a car if is bad enough! No one wants to lose their independence, but the welfare of others must be part of that decision as well...

You should always consider not using a gun for defense, as you could kill someone that you know, but couldn't see in various scenarios.It's rule #4 and it still applys

Ask Bill Hickok, he shot his own deputy for just that reason.

I would but it seams he died in 1877.

 

[AK103K]

Your instructor may have been an entry guy back when these new fangled electronic devices were full of gremlins, but he is far behind the times if he does not utilize them.

Ive been a big fan of the Aimpoints since the M2 was the "current" one, and Im right there with you when it comes to them. I do seriously want to try the red dot with a set up like smince has on his 19. Im sure it will do for the handgun what Aimpoint does for the long gun. Its just if I get one and like it, Ill need to mortgage the house for the other guns that will need the same set up.

With all that, where does the laser fit in with the above? Especially in regards to dynamic type use, like entrys, or a lot of energetic movement. Since you said earlier you had the lasers mounted on your rifles, were you using them in this capacity, or are the red dots more useful.

I believe you also said earlier you used the laser with the NVG's. Im assuming its because its easier to look over the top of the gun with the NVG's on than try and aim through the Aimpoints. How about when you dont have NVG's? Nevermind, I answered it with the next thought. IR is no good without something to see it.

 

[Rob228]

We used the IR lasers with NVG's as trying to make everything fit and see the reticule of a red dot through NVG's does not work out so well, but if you apply all the fundamentals when using the IR laser and NVG's with a carbine they worked amazingly, from CQB range out to about 300 yards.

 

[AK103K]

Guess you must not have aging parents. Hopefully you live long enough, because if you do there comes a point where you you'll be happy to just hold on to the skills you once had.

Actually I do and know exactly what youre saying. Then again, my parents are still active and productive, and they are now in their late 70's.

Things are what they are until they arent, and then you deal with things as best you can.


Oh, and this old age stuff and lasers probably isnt the best choice for the argument. As I say just about every time I talk of my experience with lasers on handguns, it stlill looks like Kathrine Hepburn is holding the gun when Im trying to hold the dot on a smaller target and you try and follow the dot. Now I dont know how old you are, and if you know who she is, but if you ever saw her towards the end oy her life, you know exactly what Im referring to.

Two sides to every coin. I've seen many who sit a 5-7 yards and spray the target point shooting that look at you with two heads when yo ask if they can hit the target at 25 yards.

More tools avaliable is always a good thing.

Hey, a demo saw is always handy to have, but most people I know rarely need one. Still, they are handy to have, even if its only to lend it out, or show people what you can do with it when they come over and youre all bored.

Using your coin as an example, and actually, its a very good example, as the lasers place on it in the scheme of things, is the edge.

 

[oldvet53]

i use the one on my Bushmaster M-4, it is excellent for CQB and is a aid for snap shots such as in room clearing and can be adjusted for long range use in combination with the 3x9x50 scope i have mounted.

 

[jaydubya]

Quote:
I think the results of the poll speak for themselves. More participants chose option three (A great combat tool for self defense) than all the other choices -- COMBINED

And that proves what exactly?

Smince this thread is a POLL, and as I stated, the results are in. Or do you have some other point you wish to make?

When I was in the US Navy, I was an AQ, which meant I worked on all the high tech weapon systems, and our squadron, VA-122 @ Leemore Naval Air Station, developed the first "Heads-up" displays on the Corsair A-7E aircraft. Again, let me repeat, I do not trust electronics with my life in a gunfight ... PERIOD.

WildBill -- When I flew from six carriers over twenty eventful years, I trusted only me, and I always made it back aboard. My last cruise was on the Oriskany, which also carried A7s. Excellent bomb truck indeed. By the way, you mispelled Lemoore. Heh heh.

Cordially, Jack

 

[kraigwy]

Smince this thread is a POLL, and as I stated, the results are in. Or do you have some other point you wish to make? If so, start your own thread.

He started this poll, he just doen't like the results.

 

[mavracer]

As I say just about every time I talk of my experience with lasers on handguns, it stlill looks like Kathrine Hepburn is holding the gun when Im trying to hold the dot on a smaller target and you try and follow the dot.

Maybe it has to do with genetics. Dad was a heck of a good surgeon and I'm pretty adept at holding the dot increradibly still or making it track a moving object.
and Kathren Hepburn doesn't need a laser she's manning the gatlin gun.

 

[Rob228]

You know, I saw Rooster Cogburn when I was about eight years old, and I somehow missed out on seeing True Grit until I was about 16. That being said, I watched her crank that Gatling at least once a week, usually 3 times a week for most of my child hood.

 

[smince]

Smince this thread is a POLL, and as I stated, the results are in. Or do you have some other point you wish to make?

Already made it, but it seems to be lost on most of you

If so, start your own thread.

Not your thread either, so I'll stick around thanks.

He started this poll, he just doen't like the results.

No, Kraig. I didn't start this poll.

 

[WildBill45]

I think the results would be different if I added, and should have for accuracy, the category:

I have no use for a laser.

Also I guess Leemoore should be Lemoore naval air station -- oh well

All of this scratching, biting, and infighting, when you all damn well know these facts:

The intent of this poll was about up close defense for individuals, and as such no laser or iron sights, will beat a good point shooter in this scenario ... PERIOD...

So give it up, go home, and have a coke! YOU LOSE! Don't get your panties in a bunch!!!