Lasers ... useful for a fight, or a good training tool only?

[GaryGGR]

Your poll doesn’t mention the shooting distance and how do you define up close 7 feet, 20 feet or 20 yards?

 

[Rob228]

A great dry fire training tool 14 17.07%
A great night fire training tool 6 7.32%
A great combat tool for self defense 50 60.98%
A great tactical tool for entry teams, and other tactics 12 14.63%

So give it up, go home, and have a coke! YOU LOSE! Don't get your panties in a bunch!!!

I'm still not seeing it. In fact, point shooting is never mentioned. You did say:

"I know no one who has experienced real life and death combat that would use a laser on a fighting gun."

and several of us who have, do, so you were wrong there too. Maybe you should unbunch your panties and accept that you are not the only one who might know something about shooting.

 

[markj]

I want a laser like the one in Goldfinger Bond almost lost the family jewels there...

 

[dgludwig]

I have no use for a laser.

We get it. I think you've spent a lot of time spinning your wheels when all you had to say was I have no use for a laser. The problem is that wasn't enough for you. You apparently felt it necessary to denigrate the opinions of others with your drive-by potshots and your lack of respect for the experience and the expertise of others.
As an admittedly "on the fence" guy when it comes to the practicality of laser sights as it relates to self-defense and, though I'm still riding it, I've learned a lot as a result of the discussion in this thread; things I would never have learned had I entered the arena with my eyes squinted firmly shut and my hands clamped tightly over my ears.

 

[oldvet53]

i don't currently have a laser on my hand guns, CT only makes one for the Bursa and it's for the .380 not the 9mm and i just got the 1911. but have one and a flashlight on my M-4 and at 3:00 in the am i don't need to try and use my sights, flashlight in Bg's eyes and red dot on chest,Game Over!

 

[smince]

From another trainer on lasers and older folks:

I've taught a class for seniors before and the one thing I can tell you with confidence is to stay away from lasers. The guys who I had in class (the average age was 68) that came with laser-equipped handguns were ALWAYS far behind in their decision-making process even if they were able to draw quicker. Too much time was spent on trying to locate the laser and not on dealing with the primary threat. This also increased their tunnel vision which reduced their perception of multiple adversaries.

IMHO, anything that draws their attention from the threat is a determent.

The problem is that wasn't enough for you. You apparently felt it necessary to denigrate the opinions of others with your drive-by potshots and your lack of respect for the experience and the expertise of others.

As an admittedly "on the fence" guy when it comes to the practicality of laser sights as it relates to self-defense and, though I'm still riding it, I've learned a lot as a result of the discussion in this thread; things I would never have learned had I entered the arena with my eyes squinted firmly shut and my hands clamped tightly over my ears.

We often learn when someone challenges the staus quo or the common thought on a subject.

Basically all the 'experience' I've seen related here is people shooting small groups at stationary targets on a range. Or perhaps in a proactive 'assault'-type Mil/LE scenario.

Exactly none of which relates to how you may or may not use your laser in a close range reactive type gunfight like you are likely to find yourself in.

If that's you idea of 'expertise', sorry about that.

So, are you buying one or not?

 

[kraigwy]

Smince:

Maybe I can explain where I, as and "older person" thinks the laser has its place. Nothing in the original poll indicated a distance regarding the use of the laser, only if there was a "use in defensive pistol craft".

I can't talk for others, I can only based my comments on my experience with a pistol/revolver in defensive situations (or sometimes in offense).

Many years ago, I was a young scrawny infantryman in SE Asia. Because of my size I was "volunteered" to crawl down some stinking, muddy hole in the ground, armed with a 1911a1 and a red lens L shaped flashlight with poor batteries. I wasn't in a position to see the sights unless I shinned the flash light on the front sights. After lasers came out and I got one on my 642 I realized it would have been perfect for the incidents described above.

Fast forward several years and where I was a street cop. Many times I had to do a building search, peaking around corners into different rooms and such. I got to where I would use a small inspection mirror to do my looking before I was exposed. When I did have to poke the gun out, I also had to poke my head out. Or going through back yards at night looking for prowlers. Again Point shooting wouldn't work in this situation.

If I had a laser, I could have pointed the gun out without having to use the sights. After a bit of playing I discovered I could use the mirror to spot the laser dot and the target without exposing anything but my hand.

Yes, If I could go back in time, with a laser you bet I would.

Now I'm an old has been, I have the laser on my pocket pistol, it does not prevent me from point shooting, nor does it prevent me from using sights. I'm not saying its perfect in every situation.

Lets look at reality. I doubt where I live I will ever have to use it in self defense of my person. Critters go after my chickens at night, to protect my chickens I use the laser, Point shooting nor sights work in low light situations. Distance prevents point shooting at a skunk, fox, etc. in my chickent pen. I may not have time to go to the house for a rifle and flash light. I also killed a rattler under my steps one evening that I wouldn't have been able to hit without the laser.

Will I ever have to use it in self defense? I doubt it, but if I do, its there. If its close granted I'll probably go the point shooting route, if its at distance, and I see my sights, I'll use them, it its dark, not close, I'll use my laser.

It's a tool.

I'm still certified as a LE firearms instructor, I ow my students knowledge that there is another tool out there that they may or may not need.

But for others to say, us old guys don't know anything. We've been there a time or too, and most of us adapt to new technology, heck I even learned to use this computer. I've even been known to use Mil Dots instead of the front sight to judge distance. I didn't have range finders when I taught sniper schools but you can bet I do now.

Again, the laser is a tool, I suggest everyone who is serious about shooting, at least study the thing to see if maybe they might work for them. Never have I said the laser replaces point shooting or using the sights of a pistol/revolver.

Be careful in blanket statements.

 

[smince]

Do you defensively shoot the skunks and foxes? Or do you have the time to proactively shoot them?

Did you have to draw and laser the rattler in the split second before he struck you? Or did you have enough time to use the laser to line up a clean shot?

Think about it for a while.

 

[kraigwy]

A great dry fire training tool
A great night fire training tool
A great combat tool for self defense
A great tactical tool for entry teams, and other tactics

There is nothing in your Poll about drawing or time of shot.

It appears you now want to change the rules because you don't like the results.

Maybe it would be better to start another poll wording is so you get the results you would like but don't expect me to play your games.

 

[smince]

And I keep telling you....I didn't start the poll

 

[PIGMAN]

My best advice is to buy a Wally Mart special for $30 and experiment with it to find out if it works for you.

In my opinion these things give you one hell of an edge in a night fight especially so if you have to use a pistol. No alignment between the target and sights is necessary with a laser,you place the beam on the target and send the shot.They also work very well on lining up a shot on a moving target as well.

These things work great out to about 50 yds which in my opinion is about the legal maximum in order to make a believable claim of self defence especially so in an urban environment.

 

[AK103K]

In my opinion these things give you one hell of an edge in a night fight especially so if you have to use a pistol.

In IR maybe. If you have a death grip on the gun and the switch is on, or yours is always on, I would say the edge goes more to the opposition, especially if your hands are moving.

 

[dgludwig]

Never have I said the laser replaces point shooting or using the sights of a pistol/revolver.

I don't think any body has said that. Yet, we keep hearing the mantra:

Do you defensively shoot the skunks and foxes? Or do you have the time to proactively shoot them?

Did you have to draw and laser the rattler in the split second before he struck you? Or did you have enough time to use the laser to line up a clean shot?

Think about it for a while.

As mentioned previously, I'm another "old-timer" with thirty years of le service under my belt. And I have "thought about it for a while". Are you people, due to a reluctance to give up longly-held, preconceived notions as to how you think everybody else should think when it comes to shooting a handgun accurately under stress, consciously or subconsciously selectively screening out what most of us who consider a laser sight as a possible tool to augment our survival chances in a possible self-defense scenario have been saying all along? Do you just ignore clearly stated positions as reflected in the following quotes:

It doesn't replace the sights, it supplements them.

Contrary to what some people advocate, I think the laser is used more effectively at a distance rather than up close. Armed confrontations at bad breath distance is going to be a "point and shoot affair". Time spent, while up close and personal, searching for a dancing red dot on your target before you pull the trigger, could well mean a life (yours) wasted.
On the other hand, I think one of the best tactics when using a laser is when time, distance and cover is to your advantage, making it possible to place a red dot on your target from behind a barricade without exposing yourself.

Are they a cure-all in a gunfight? I seriously doubt it. Can they help under certain situations? In my mind, undoubtedly.

As others have said, no law says you have to use it. Practice wtih it, practice without it, and learn to use your handgun to it's full potential.

And I'm not saying they will make up for a lack of training.weather you are a new shooter or a well seasoned shooter with irons you will need some training with the laser to be able to properly use the laser.
as I and others have stated it is another tool in the tool box you shouldn't throw other tools out because it doesn't replace anything.

you assume that having a laser precludes you from "point shooting" or "using your sights". No one is claiming that is the case.

IMHO, lasers are a great self-defense tool; it enhances my capabilities with the pistol. Do I rely on it totally - absolutely not.

Lasers are another tool for you tool bag. They supplement the sights.

you said nothing about an upclose immediate gunfight in your original scenario. I agree that in a situation like that, it's point and shoot. I'll have my red dot, but I won't be waiting to place it precisely, at least not at first.

Again, I see the laser as something that enhances MY capabilities, as apparently do most in the survey. I'm not a slave to it, practice with and without, but to me, it's much more that a toy.

the utility of a laser sight in a combat situation. You always have the stock irons-use them and use them quickly when the need to shoot an assailant occurs within spitting range. The laser sight can be an advantage in other possible scenarios and there's simply no downside to having them if and when such a circumstance presents itself.

Sometimes we just have a need to shoot at something in a low light situation where iron and night sights just won't work and a laser is our best option. It doesn't mean we don't know how to point shoot, how to shoot at a moving target or how to use our iron or night sights. It just means that the laser is sometimes our best option.

Most of those who have posted in this thread who find a laser sight helpful in some situations are not saying that a laser sight is a substitute for any traditional self-defense regimens, only that a laser might augment established shooting techniques in particular circumstances.

I think the problem here is that too many anti laser people seem to think lasers give off some sort of radio wave that makes the shooter brain dead, making them incapable of thought, or using sights, or point shooting, and marksmanship fundamentals all together.

But some people cannot grasp the ideal that we're not saying the laser sight eliminates the pistols sights or point shooting. What I'm saying its a different tool, to use when the others may not.

And the point that the "anti-laser" camp resolutely refuses to concede is that there are NO shooters in this thread who are partial to a laser who have ever suggested that a laser sight takes the place of situational awareness, point and shoot training, quick and decisive reactions to a threat or poses any other impediment to a sound training regimen. The "pro-laser" camp has simply argued that, one, a laser sight might be an asset in some self-defense shooting circumstances and, two, that no one says you have to resort to a laser if the situation is better resolved with the factory irons.

Have you read my (and many other people's) posts? I've made it abundantly clear that I don't believe a laser is appropriate for "point" shooting; that, in fact, in a close up, reflexive response to an armed confrontation, a laser is probably more of a liability than an asset.

Again, I have never suggested or even implied that a laser sight is a substitute for deploying a handgun with iron sights nor is a laser a replacement for a good training regimen. As I've opined on several occasions in this thread, I regard the laser sight as being helpful mostly at longer than usual gunfight ranges

Just because a handgun is equipped with a laser doesn't mean it has to be used. But it can be used if the situation warrants it.

Where is it written that when one chooses to put a laser on his/her pistol that that person can no longer use his/her pistol's sights? Where is it written that one cannot "point-shoot" when there is a laser on the pistol?

Will I ever have to use it in self defense? I doubt it, but if I do, its there. If its close granted I'll probably go the point shooting route, if its at distance, and I see my sights, I'll use them, it its dark, not close, I'll use my laser.

It's a tool.

...or do you just choose to impute your own invention to views contrary to your own?

 

[WildBill45]

smince

Exactly none of which relates to how you may or may not use your laser in a close range reactive type gunfight like you are likely to find yourself in.

You are right on that one. If you say bird, they bring a fish. If you say plane, they bring up a submarine.

These waspish responses in their verbose style is nothing more than a shell game to cover up their lack of experience or skills in the application they know this was about!

I admit that I did not post the poll correctly, not having an out selection, but, and there always is a but in life, I did in my responses make clear the real intent. This was not accepted as they took a pose of A New York Lawyer in a cheap suit, as they attacked the fine points and details, and the not the substance.

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I AM STATING THIS:

UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL POINT SHOOTING IS FASTER AND MORE ACCURATE WHEN YOU ARE IN A LIFE & DEATH SCENARIO.

DEFINITIONS:

UP CLOSE & PERSONAL; YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS, IF NOT, TAKE YOUR BEST GUESS!

LIFE & DEATH; IN IMMEDIATE FEAR OF SERIOUS BODILY HARM OR DEATH, WITH NO TIME BEYOND YOUR MOST EXTREME ABILITY TO PERFORM. SOME OF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SPEED NECESSARY, BUT THIS SCENARIO IS FOR THOSE WHO DO ... PERIOD. THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS.

 

[jaydubya]

WildBill said: THIS IS THE LAST TIME I AM STATING THIS:

UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL POINT SHOOTING IS FASTER AND MORE ACCURATE WHEN YOU ARE IN A LIFE & DEATH SCENARIO.

I disagree. And so let us agree to disagree.

Jack

 

[Rob228]

UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL POINT SHOOTING IS FASTER AND MORE ACCURATE WHEN YOU ARE IN A LIFE & DEATH SCENARIO.

If you had stated that in the first place, instead of saying that lasers were a toy that no one could possibly take seriously, there is a chance that your opinion would have been respected though disagreed with, instead of just disagreed with.

Further, in regards to waspish comments, you yourself are a champion, as it turned out that anyone who disagreed was labeled as having no experience, and when it was proved otherwise, our "panties were in a bunch".

 

[dgludwig]

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I AM STATING THIS:

UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL POINT SHOOTING IS FASTER AND MORE ACCURATE WHEN YOU ARE IN A LIFE & DEATH SCENARIO.

AND THIS IS THE LAST TIME I'M ASKING THIS:

WHO IS SAYING DIFFERENTLY? DID YOU READ THE ABOVE POSTS (IN POST NUMBER 173)? IS THERE ANYONE THERE WHO TAKES EXCEPTION TO YOUR PREMISE " UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL POINT SHOOTING IS FASTER AND MORE ACCURATE WHEN YOU ARE IN A LIFE AND DEATH SCENARIO?" DO YOU JUST WANT SOMEBODY TO DISAGREE WITH YOU SO THAT YOU CAN EXPOUND ON WHY "POINT SHOOTING" IS BETTER? DO YOU REALLY CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK? AND, IF YOU DON"T, WHY DID YOU COMPOSE A POLL?

To be honest with you, I just don't get it. Everybody whose posts I listed above is agreeing that you should dispense with a laser sight when close-in shooting is involved; that lasers are just a fall-back tool that have their place in longer range situations. What am I missing?

 

[jaydubya]

DJludwig -- I regret to say I disagree with you too on one point. Apparently you believe that distant shooting is where lasers shine (pun intended). From my experience, with CT's red lasers, they become rather marginal at about twenty yards. (Green lasers on the other hand illuminate my indoor range like a football stadium.) I practice more or less weekly, with my CT-fitted equipment, at five-ten yards, the distance many consider to be the realm of point shooting. And I just love to make a black hole appear in the target where a red dot used to be. Rather quickly too.

Cordially, Jack

 

[WildBill45]

It appears the POLL is now closed

It appears the POLL is now closed!

Although the poll generated a lot of passionate and good comments for the most part, the next time I will do a better job of being concise and clear from the start! This was my first poll, and as such the inexperience in such polling matters did show.

Tons of fun though!!!

 

[dgludwig]

Apparently you believe that distant shooting is where lasers shine (pun intended).

Well, yes and no. I guess what I'm really saying is that if laser sights "shine", it would seem to be at longer ranges as compared to much closer ones. And, as some have noted, what constitutes long vs short range really hasn't been defined. I am not an advocate of laser sights, per se, at least at this point in time. I'm still trying to keep an open mind as I assess a laser's assets and liabilities. But one thing is becoming clearer to me: there simply isn't any downside to them (other than cost and possibly added bulk/weight factors) if you train as if they are a supplement to conventional self-defense strategies as opposed to being a substitute for same; which is what most advocates of laser sights have been saying all along in this thread.