Lasers ... useful for a fight, or a good training tool only?

[mudgun83]

I have both the night sights and the laser, with the laser boresighted on a target at probably about 15 feet (laser aperture is about 1 inch directly below the muzzle, and I can adjust both windage and elevation). If I sight the gun in a traditional manner, Weaver or Isoceles, the red dot and front sight are almost coincident, and I personally do not find that distracting. As far as shooting on the move, in other than bright sunlight (when the laser is pretty much useless), and especially in low light, if I don't see the dot on target, I'm wasting a bullet.
I have not done a lot of that type shooting (want to do more), but the laser helps.
Again, I see the laser as something that enhances MY capabilities, as apparently do most in the survey. I'm not a slave to it, practice with and without, but to me, it's much more that a toy.

 

[dgludwig]

Again, I see the laser as something that enhances MY capabilities, as apparently do most in the survey. I'm not a slave to it, practice with and without, but to me, it's much more that a toy.

This is a concise, "in a nutshell" summation which exactly reflects my take on the utility of a laser sight in a combat situation. You always have the stock irons-use them and use them quickly when the need to shoot an assailant occurs within spitting range. The laser sight can be an advantage in other possible scenarios and there's simply no downside to having them if and when such a circumstance presents itself.
Most would agree that there's no substitute for proper training, be it with or without a laser and, if your handgun is equipped with a laser, a good training protocol will include plenty of practice with and without the laser.

 

[mavracer]

I agree if it IS a scenario where you know trouble is about but not immediately in front of you, and you have the laser on and ready, then it does become a useful tool.

let me get this straight not only does a laser hinder my ability to point shoot it also turns off my situational awareness.

 

[brabham78]

let me get this straight not only does a laser hinder my ability to point shoot it also turns off my situational awareness.

Let me get this straight - I agree.

One could write an essay on this subject, and still not make the point any better than that.

 

[markj]

Gee, what we gonna dis agree with next?

If you like them use them, if you dont like them, well dont use them. Simple?

I dont like them, I dont use them. My cousin, he likes them and he uses them. Big deal.

He also uses wd-40 to lite the potato gun I use carb cleaner. Both get the job done.

Now if you really really want to do it right, you will mount aircraft landing lites to the gun. It will blind everyone in a 100 yard radius so nobody gets hurt

 

[smince]

Ever try sighting with your sights while running/moving? No, I haven't.

My point exactly: it's not easy to see the sights while moving and trying to shoot back. Any sights, laser or iron/tritium.

Lot's of times it will be point shooting or just the outline of the gun centered on the target. No sight picture or red dot.

...as apparently do most in the survey

70% of the people voting think the laser is a good combat tool for self defense and tactical tool for entry teams.

Most people don't know exactly how much they don't know.

Just because it may be good for .Mil or LE doesn't necessarily transfer to a self defense situation.

 

[mudgun83]

"My point exactly: it's not easy to see the sights while moving and trying to shoot back. Any sights, laser or iron/tritium. Lot's of times it will be point shooting or just the outline of the gun centered on the target."

Exactly when a laser dot might be useful.

"Most people don't know exactly how much they don't know."

Thank my shooting stars there are people on this forum who can tell the rest of us how stupid we are.

 

[kraigwy]

"Most people don't know exactly how much they don't know."

My grandfather use to tell me, "there are none so stupid and those who think everyone else is stupid".

 

[AK103K]

Exactly when a laser dot might be useful.

It might, if you see it. I think what those of us who arent really sold on it are trying to say is, and it seems its either not getting across or just being ignored because you dont agree, is that your focus is in the wrong place for a serious encounter.

On paper, at leisure on the range, it may all seem to work really well, and you can impress your friends as to the little groups you can shoot when firing from the hip. But try that exact same thing, or even putting the gun up, and doing it under stress, while moving and shooting, and where is the dot now, and why are you looking for it, instead of shooting the target?

Yea, it is a supplement to what ever else you have going on with the gun, and thats cool, just as long as it doesnt become some sort of fascination that takes the focus away from what needs done, when it needs done.

Thank my shooting stars there are people on this forum who can tell the rest of us how stupid we are.

Actions are much better than words at proving that. As I said earlier, the only way to prove your detractor wrong, is to get together and run through some "realistic" things and prove it. Otherwise, its just all huff and puff. Once you get to the range, all the BS stops, words, actions, and toys.

 

[BGutzman]

I know no one who has experienced real life and death combat that would use a laser on a fighting gun

They are widely used by all active duty US Army Infantry, Rangers, SF ect. in combat.

 

[WildBill45]

BGutzman

They are widely used by all active duty US Army Infantry, Rangers, SF ect. in combat.

This is true in some cases, but in up close in house searches ask a veteran about using lasers ... I have. Again, in this situation where folks are popping up as a surprise inside houses up close and personal, they tell me that they just point and shoot or die. There is no time for anything else.

When I lived in Colorado I worked "closely" with the 3rd. Cav. at Fort Carson, and we talked about this very thing. I hunted with some of them.

Up close, in your face close they point and shoot before being shot. House searched are more what a civilian would be involved in, not sniper work, or long range shooting as that is NOT self defense in most cases...

I appreciate feedback from those who have actually had experience in such situations, but as all can tell some that respond do not know what it is like to defend yourself under the cloud of stress of you are about to die. This is a serious issue, which I have tried to convey ... this is not a video game. Take it serious, whether you use a laser or not, as one day your choice may bite you in the butt!

PS.. lets not get too grumpy thinking people are calling others stupid. I do not believe that is what is going on. Just men cat fighting, and passionately expressing their opinion. We are all gun fans, all Americans--at least most, so take it easy on your brothers, play nice!

 

[smince]

Actions are much better than words at proving that. As I said earlier, the only way to prove your detractor wrong, is to get together and run through some "realistic" things and prove it. Otherwise, its just all huff and puff. Once you get to the range, all the BS stops, words, actions, and toys.

Rolling around in the mud practicing H2H skills
Getting bruises from Sims or AirSoft pellets
Actually finding out that your pet theories don't hold water

None of this is nearly as ego-stroking as shooting tight groups at a stationary target without breaking a sweat and calling yourself G-T-G

They are widely used by all active duty US Army Infantry, Rangers, SF ect. in combat.

But the vast majority of times in carefully planned proactive missions.

 

[StrongSideArmsInc]

Willbill it is obivious that you have never been in a shooting, god help you, I hope you never do. Nothing happens as you train for, that is were the word dynamic came from. It makes no sense to me way people shoot at non-moving targets, in all the shootings I have been a part of or investigated, nobody ever stood still. I am not an advocate of any laser that you have to physically turn on, any good laser should have a pressure or touch button. Statistics show you will most likely get an a handgun up close and personal. However, they also show that 99% of the shooters move. Do you pratice on moving targets, I highly doubt it. Saying lasers are useless is about as ignorant as stating static targets are useless.

FBI statistics show that an average of 16 shots are fired in LEO/Suspect shootings. In the last 35 years, the hit ratio is 1-12. LEOs train more than most, and this still not a very good ratio. FBI released a new statistic aboout 2 years ago showing the shot ratio dropped to 1-4, when a laser was used. This number and there research findings lead the U.S. Army to adopt lasers as standard issue in 2003.
Most people do not, and never will train at level of a Military/SWAT operator. As a person ages, so does their eyesight. Both examples are a good reason why lasers are usefull. Lastly, you do not work for any special agency, forensic shooting team, and your not a operator. This soley makes you unqualified to level opinion on this subject.

 

[WildBill45]

smince

Yes my friend, I agree...

I think what is getting lost here is the premise of fighting for your life in real time. It is like asking me what it feels like on the surface of the moon … I have never been there, I have seen the video, I have read about it, but to describe what it is really like is impossible for me to say. Fighting is the same.

If two opponents, or bad guy vs. good guy are facing each other there are facts that are beyond contestation that can alter the outcome. The most important fact that has the most weight in this equation is SPEED. If one knows a hundred ways to throw a punch, and the other one only knows one way to throw a punch, however, the one who knows one way is faster, then that speed differential negates the other’s advantage of knowing more ways. For instance: First, the man with a hundred slow punches cannot land any because the other is fast enough to block them all, second, the fast man has already knocked the first man down because the slow man cannot block any punches thrown by the faster man.

As a result of superior speed, if these two men were using guns instead of fists, the fastest man, in hand speed and reaction speed, will win if both have equal shooting skills. Therefore as we all seem to agree upon, lasers in this circumstance, which was my original intent to convey before my shortcomings got the subject off track, are null and void…

Thank you for your time…

 

[tgreening]

Don't really have a dog in this fight but it seems to me that what my instructor (ex LEO)said makes quite a bit of sense. "Buy your gun. Take it to the range and practice good shooting technique. Practice, practice, practice. This alone will put you way ahead of 99.9999% of BGs who learn their shooting skills from watching gang banger movies and orders of magnitude more likely to survive the encounter."

Sounds good to me.

 

[labhound]

Okay WildBill, so in a showdown at the O.K. Corral, quick draw and shoot would win out over a laser. We get it, however we don't all live in the wild wild west. Sometimes we just have a need to shoot at something in a low light situation where iron and night sights just won't work and a laser is our best option. It doesn't mean we don't know how to point shoot, how to shoot at a moving target or how to use our iron or night sights. It just means that the laser is sometimes our best option.

 

[WildBill45]

labhound

You keep saying: WE, OUR ... who are you speaking for? I speak for me, I ... and no one else.

It is not the O.K. Corral I am worried about, it is right there as you get into your car, or exit your local eatery...

You do realize this is just a fun activity to promote thinking, eh?

 

[labhound]

Okay WildBill, so in a showdown in the local Walmart parking lot, quick draw and shoot would win out over a laser. I get it, my carry gun doesn't have a laser, however I don't live at Walmart, or Burger King. Sometimes I just have a need to shoot at something in a low light situation on my own property when iron and night sights just won't work and a laser is my best option. It doesn't mean I don't know how to point shoot, how to shoot at a moving target or how to use my iron or night sights. It just means that the laser is sometimes my best option. I don't need to use a quick draw if someone is prowling around my house or barn at night. The gun is out of the holster, the light and laser are on. I don't expect everyone to fall into my category nor should you expect me to fall into yours.

This better for your WildBill? And yeah I realize this is an exercise to promote thinking.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

There are already a ton of replies to this thread so I don't know if this will get read or not but I just wanted to add my two cents anyway.

I figure that if you can draw and whip your laser onto a target and fire then you don't need the laser. If you can't draw and whip your laser onto the target then it might be on the target or it might be on the wall of the building 100 feet down the block... which doesn't exactly tell you where you are pointing the gun.

If it is too dark to see your iron sights then you need to get night sights of some kind. More importantly however, is to get a light source of some kind whether it is mounted on your gun or held by your off hand. The contrast of the light on the target allows you to see regular iron sights. The light also allows you to see what you are shooting at (you have to be able to identify the threat and see the threat so you can actually pick something to aim at besides a shadow). I would still suggest getting night sights if possible because you can illuminate your target and then just put the front sight that is glowing the color of your choice on the target and fire (kinda like a laser but... better because it is guaranteed to be on your gun in your hand... not possibly on the target or possibly 100 feet away on some other object).

You pretty much need to master point shooting for very close encounters because it is faster than lasers and sights.

If you are in a situation that allows more time to aim and fire you are still better off looking at your front sight rather than searching for a laser. If the target is standing still then you still have to hold the pistol below eye level so that you can see more of your target in order to find the laser (because your gun and your iron sights get in the way... hmm there's a hint... you should probably just use the stuff that sits right in front of your face). Since you are now holding the gun below the level you normally hold a pistol at you don't have a firing platform that is as stable as the one that you use at the range. This means you will probably shoot worse unless you train shooting from that position. Why would you do that, though? It isn't like it is any faster and you could have just used night sights and accomplished the same goal without having to search for the laser. And, if you don't need to search for the laser then you don't need the laser because your body is automatically putting the pistol on target without the help of the laser.

Also, if the target is moving at all it will be pretty hard to get the laser to stick on them long enough to get a point of aim anyway and you will end up using your irons for reference just to get the laser on the target in order to use the laser in the first place lol. It isn't too hard to hit a moving sheet of paper that is 4'x3' moving in a perfectly straight line perpendicular to the line of fire with a little laser practice. However depending on the speed of the moving target you will have to lead the target and aim one, two, or three feet in front of the target to hit it... and obviously you wouldn't be able to see the laser while leading the target like that. AND, a real target moves every part of its body while running and wears clothing that may or may not dampen or camouflage the laser even when it is on the target (God forbid that they wear a red or a green shirt or something that doesn't reflect the light of the laser too well). Also, if the target is moving The inability for a human to hold the laser perfectly steady combined with the laser falling off the body parts of the target as they change position will make the laser quite impractical to utilize against, well, anything that is trying to flee from you (which you shouldn't be shooting at anyway) or anything that is trying to kill you and is seeking cover.

I think lasers are excellent training tools. I like all kinds. The ones that light up only for an instant when the gun is dry-fired are good because they are the most accurate way to see exactly where the bullet would have gone if it was a real round and any mistake you might have made isn't covered up by the recoil of the gun. Regular always-on lasers are okay for this type of training if you have a spotter to watch the laser very carefully before every shot to see if you are jerking it one way or another just before the round goes off. But that isn't quite as precise. The main use for always-on lasers is training yourself to point-shoot. With the laser on you can draw the weapon, confirm you are on target with the laser then pull the trigger. Then re-holster and practice getting faster and faster with the drill. Eventually your body will index itself on the target by muscle memory without requiring the visual cue from the laser. Then you can continue practicing without the laser altogether and you will be in great shape. You will also be at your fastest too because you won't need to wait for the laser to confirm you are aiming at the target... your body already knows you are on target so you don't need to wait for confirmation and you can fire instead of looking for the laser for confirmation.

Ideally... a red dot is the fastest way to aim a pistol without point-shooting (so outside of the effective range of point shooting is what I'm talking about). If you can carry a red dot on your pistol and ensure that it will be illuminated when you need it most, it will be the most effective. You do not need to ensure vertical and horizontal alignment (unlike iron sights) and you do not need to search for the dot because it is guaranteed to be on your gun in front of your face (unlike a laser). But I can't think of a way to fit a red dot onto a weapon that is intended to be concealed.

 

[smince]

Sometimes we just have a need to shoot at something in a low light situation where iron and night sights just won't work

Can you give an example? I'd say if it's too dark for night sights then it's too dark to be shooting.

FBI statistics show that an average of 16 shots are fired in LEO/Suspect shootings. In the last 35 years, the hit ratio is 1-12. LEOs train more than most, and this still not a very good ratio. FBI released a new statistic aboout 2 years ago showing the shot ratio dropped to 1-4, when a laser was used. This number and there research findings lead the U.S. Army to adopt lasers as standard issue in 2003.
Most people do not, and never will train at level of a Military/SWAT operator. As a person ages, so does their eyesight. Both examples are a good reason why lasers are usefull.

Does this 'study' segregate reactive from proactive use? I don't think so.

Lastly, you do not work for any special agency, forensic shooting team, and your not a operator. This soley makes you unqualified to level opinion on this subject.

Hmm. I'd say this 'us' vs 'them' attitude makes your posts unqualified on any subject.

JMHO, you understand...