Lasers ... useful for a fight, or a good training tool only?

[WildBill45]

mavracer

Do you guys that say instinctive point shooting is faster that have tried lasers have your lasers sighted in?
I know mine are and if the dot is not on the target when I pull the trigger then there's no bullet hole in the target.
I mean if your instinctive pointing of the gun doesn't have the dot on target
your either missing the target or your bullets aren't going where the dot is.

The problem is not the fact that the bullets aren't going where the dot is.

The problem is you can't see the dot because you are already dead, as the instinctive shooting bad guy killed you before your eyes found the DOT!

This is the survey question. We all know a sighted in laser dot will be there where you are aiming ... given time. Hundreds of a second is what we are talking about here.

Only in the movies do the good guys always shoot faster and more accurate. In real life it is the other way around in a lot of cases... Time is life!

 

[kraigwy]

WildBill, your theory is all wet. First off, you assume that having a laser precludes you from "point shooting" or "using your sights". No one is claiming that is the case.

Second, if you ever used a laser, you would know its a bit faster then you think. much faster in fact. Thats of course, like sights you practice with it.

Most of my shooting is outside, being Wyoming its pretty bright, the laser doesn't work. I do how ever go to our clubs indoor range for shooting once in a while to shoot bullseye. I sometimes show off by shooting my 642 with the CT at the 50 ft NRA bullseye targets. Others are quite impressed that once can keep the bullets in the 9-10 with a snubby. They arn't that impress after they try my pistol and after a short session they find out they can do it with the Laser. In fact I could probably sell a few if I took them to the range with me.

Again I'll stress the laser DOES NOT preclude the use of sights or point shooting. It's a separate tool, and if it "break" (I've had mine for about 5 years and have had zero problems with it) you are no worse then when you didn't have one.

They are just as fast as point shooting, I tried it, I practice it. As soon as I pull my 642 out of my pocket its activated, in point shooting the red dot is right there. You dont have to searh for it, look where you are going to shoot and that's where the red dot will be.

I've used a pistol/revolver in some pretty hairy situations, from crawling down tunnels in SE Asia, to 20 years in LE. I think the laser would have been a great assit both situations. I would have had them if they existed.


I recommend anyone, who reads these post try the laser for yourself. If it works go for it, if it dosn't then don't. But to say OLD Dudes wouldn't consider them is not quite true. If nothing else I AM AN OLD DUDE.

 

[mudgun83]

I'm with Kraigwy. IMHO, lasers are a great self-defense tool; it enhances my capabilities with the pistol. Do I rely on it totally - absolutely not. I practice about a third of the time using the iron sights on my Sig, otherwise use the laser. As Kraigwy says, if you do practice and are familiar with sighting your gun, the red dot is exactly where your gun is pointing - shoot. If "hundredths of seconds" matter, I can get a very accurate shot off with my laser without bringing the gun all the way up to use the iron sights. It does have limitations - useless in bright sun, but in almost all other light conditions, it's nice to have a tool that will allow me to use my gun better if I am off balance, moving, on my back, looking around a corner, etc.

 

[mavracer]

The problem is you can't see the dot because you are already dead, as the instinctive shooting bad guy killed you before your eyes found the DOT!

I can't help you if your not going to use the laser the right way. if you practice with it properly the dot will find your eye. if it's not there you don't look for it because you've used it enough to know it doesn't always show up in bright light.
When you've practiced with one and actually used it in some non typical scenarios you will find a few where the laser makes good hits easier and some near impossible shots possible.

 

[dgludwig]

I recommend anyone, who reads these post try the laser for yourself. If it works go for it, if it dosn't then don't. But to say OLD Dudes wouldn't consider them is not quite true. If nothing else I AM AN OLD DUDE.

Agreed, which was the point of my original post. I'm in the same "time zone" re "Old Dude" status, and, yes, my thirty or so years of previous training does not preclude me from learning (and maybe adopting a different self-defense strategy-as I said earlier, the jury is still out for me in terms of how viable a laser sight is, or isn't) new techniques and training protocol. Try it (laser sight shooting) and practice with it before condemning it out of hand. If it doesn't work for you, then abandon it. If it does, you've enhanced your survival chances.

 

[jaydubya]

Cheapshooter, I will be eighty this April, and have been a handgun/rifle/shotgun shooter for most of my life. As I stated in my post above, I have three handguns equipped with Crimson Trace laser grips, and would not consider buying a handgun that CT did not provide grips for. Thus, I do not fit your "old fogey" theory. Indeed, I offer an alternative view: the very old and the very young love laser sights for their own reasons. In my opinion those who sneer at them are in their middle years. I would guess that these same people also sneer at MIM parts, plastic pistols, etc., etc. In other words, they fit a personality, not an age group.

Cordially, Jack

 

[smince]

Repeating what I said earlier:

They may be good on a square range after dark shooting at a stationary target.

Put one on an Airsoft or Sim pistol and see how useful they are in actual Force-On-Force training. See how many of the ad copy promises work out for you.

If your BG stands still it may work out for you.

Try it with a living, moving, thinking target sometime that can shoot you back.

 

[mudgun83]

Jaydubya,
I'm 57 and very active, and I love my Crimson Traces on my Sigs and Kahr.

Smince,
Not following the logic.
Having a laser on a pistol against a moving target in low light is WORSE than having just iron sights?
Even if you are very skilled at aiming without necessarily lining up the iron sights perfectly, why wouldn't the laser help?

 

[StrongSideArmsInc]

Put your self behind cover, and expose only the gun with red dot on the subject. Shooting behind cover, is far better than shooting in the open. Switch to your weak hand and shoot with the sights, and then shoot with laser in your weakhand. Case closed.

Most people commenting have never been in a shooting, nor have they been instructed on the combat effectiveness of a laser.

Lasers are another tool for you tool bag. They supplement the sights.
They allow you to shoot with more accuracy when you are in a position were you can't see the sights of the gun.
Why bring the gun up to your line of sight, when you can fire from the hip with a laser. It is faster, provided you use the proper technique.
Can you hit a moving target? Alot easier with a laser, last time I checked, perps dont stand still. The number one reason why people miss while shooting at moving targets is because 99% of people stop moving when they squeeze the trigger, the laser forces you track the target. Again, you have to be taught to use the laser correctly.
Since when is focusing on the sights better than focusing on the target. With laser, it requires you to look at the target.
Muzzle flash at night will destroy your night vision, a laser adds follow up shots with ease in low light.
What about a hostage sitiuation with only the subjects head exposed behind the body of an inocent bystander. I think a will take a laser.
If they are junk, then why do SWAT and Military Issue them?
If it gives you one edge in a gunfight, it is worth every penny.
It also allows you to decrease liablilty by making you more accountable for the rounds you are throwing down range.
Most people never receive proper training with laser, once you have been in a shooting, and have been trained properly with its benefits, you will change you mind on lasers, I am speaking from expirence.

 

[WildBill45]

Hey smince!

We can hold them still so the laser guys can play laser tag!!!

 

[AK103K]

If we could only get everyone from both sides together with a couple of simunition guns (Id say airsoft, but we need the pain reinforcement here ) and do it for real in force on force. I think its the only way it will ever get it hashed out, short of a real gunfight.

 

[WildBill45]

This poll stuff is fun!

Everyone is still missing the point that started this poll. Everyone is prefacing their opine with a litany of credentials, except they forgot to list how good they actually are at what they are preaching. Professors can tell you the theory all day long, but can they actually hit a running jackrabbit with a Colt S.A.A? Theory and reality, rarely do they meet...

Police departments use their parallel world parameters to certify people to teach their own views, and this is not by any means the answer to most of the problems; it is a catchall to cover their butts and the lesser skilled, as they use this list of procedures, rules, and policies to maintain control. Malarkey should be the real title. This is where devises such as the lasers and, the useless PR-24 come from. Look good in training.

As I stated at the beginning, I did recognize the useful purposes of a laser, but like a PR-24 in real fight, in real time, they couldn’t land spit on a real fighter, or with their PR-24 … a laser applies as well on a skilled bad guy in an instantaneous gunfight! Look good in training though.

Instant & natural reflexes do not have variables to rely on. If you drop something from your kitchen closet … you reach out and you catch it, right now, right then; this is a reflex! I am sure that if you beat it into someone’s head long enough, they could be trained to turn a laser on before it hits the floor, but we all know they won’t have time to catch the object too! AND, if you wanted to go back after developing that new reflex it won’t happen.

A fighter, martial artist, and a shootist, draws and fires on reflex; immediately if he perceives danger, right now, right there … PERIOD! No one, no matter what all the classroom theorists say, will think to activate, look for, and wait—no matter how short a time, as a hundredth of a second is an eternity at that moment—to see that red/green dot verification before shooting.

The question for those who above have said that the dot is there as you shoot when point shooting … if this is so, and you have shot before looking to verify that the dot is there, WHY BOTHER, YOU ALREADY SHOT, by reflex, right now, right there, and the laser had nothing to do with it!

All the other stuff, shooting around a corner, shooting a hostage being held, swat teams shooting people at 1000-yards, putting out birthday cake candles by gunfire in the dark … all have nothing to do with the poll question and, surviving an UP CLOSE IMMEDIATE GUNFIGHT, RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THERE! No more, no less…

THERE IS NO COMPROMISE, NO SUBSTITUTE. The next time a deer runs in front of your car by surprise, or you slip on the ice and start to fall … try to use another device to help you, any device… Please let me know how that works out for ya!

I am betting on the martial artist who has and uses reflexes, and knows how to break his fall, RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THERE, not the theory guy reading his Kindle for answers as he falls…

This poll stuff is fun! Ain’t it cool??? Keep it rolling…

 

[Entry Team]

I have a LaserMax guide rod laser on my carry Glock. I feel that the laser sighted weapon is more useful. I have also noticed that a laser is a great training aid when training shooters on proper sight alignment & trigger press.

 

[labhound]

So lets see WildBill45, it's your poll, and 70% of the people voting think the laser is a good combat tool for self defense and tactical tool for entry teams. I think your argument has come up on the short side of your own poll. You seem to feel that in an armed confrontation you would only be point shooting and not using any type of site, iron, night or laser. That may be true at times, but not every confrontation involves a draw and fire on reflex response. In some situations, your gun is already drawn, your light and laser are already on, and you spot your target and fire.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

No credentials here at at all.

I'm not a huge fan of laser sights, but I can see a red or green dot a whole lot better than I can a regular sight system in the dark. In fact, at 37 (old man.. I know) I will honestly say that I can't see my gun sites in low light like I used to be able too.

I look for tritium sites or lasers now, simply because I can't see as well in low light levels as I could in the past.

Laser sights for defense should be activated by a natural grip on the firearm and not require a switch or other awkward process to activate.

 

[smince]

Not following the logic.

Logic is a short supply commodity these days.

Having a laser on a pistol against a moving target in low light is WORSE than having just iron sights?
Even if you are very skilled at aiming without necessarily lining up the iron sights perfectly, why wouldn't the laser help?

Try it and see. But not just a moving target. One that is shooting back at you.

If they are junk, then why do SWAT and Military Issue them?

In a proactive fight, where I can set the parameters (like a raid scenario) they may have a very limited use. Look at the SWAT/Mil scenario: you can often study the targets and wait for the proper time to execute your plan. This is the area where lasers, sighted fire, and Weaver stances tend to work best (besides the static range).

Not in a reactive fight.

 

[mavracer]

all have nothing to do with the poll question and, surviving an UP CLOSE IMMEDIATE GUNFIGHT, RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THERE! No more, no less…

settle down your getting upset because the poll isn't supporting your position.
first off if you wanted to just talk about UP CLOSE IMMEDIATE GUNFIGHTS you should of stated that in your poll.then I would have agreed that a laser is a good training aid,but of no use at the time of the fight.
But you didn't you said

useful for a fight, or a good training tool only?

which opens it up to any sceniero. and unfortunetly you have absolutely no idea how your gunfight will happen so your playing precentages, probably a good bet too. I make the same one most of the time as I rarely carry a laser equiped gun.

They may be good on a square range after dark shooting at a stationary target.

Put one on an Airsoft or Sim pistol and see how useful they are in actual Force-On-Force training. See how many of the ad copy promises work out for you.

I have no problem with your challange, but since I readily admit to limited scenieros where lasers are useful, I get to pick the sceniero.

 

[mudgun83]

WildBill,
As another poster stated, you said nothing about an upclose immediate gunfight in your original scenario. I agree that in a situation like that, it's point and shoot. I'll have my red dot, but I won't be waiting to place it precisely, at least not at first.
Also, I would not choose a laser I have to switch on, like the S&W Bodyguard. I have Crimson Trace lasergrips. If you are not familiar with these, they are activated when you grip the gun by a button on the front of the grip. There is nothing to think about. The dot's there.
Finally, if I'm in a fight, the bad guy is moving, and I'm moving, I absolutely think the laser would give me an advantage. I'm going to be firing at him too.
Ever try sighting with your sights while running/moving? No, I haven't. I'd probably trip over something, then I would be a static target!

 

[AK103K]

you said nothing about an upclose immediate gunfight in your original scenario.

The big problem with anything like this is, its usually limited to a specific "scenario" trying to make a point (and which usually takes these things flying off on all sorts of tangents). The whole rest of the spectrum usually ends up getting lost in the specifics like tunnel vision.

Do lasers have a use, yes, no, and maybe. Are they better than a good set of night sights on your gun, for me, no. If you think you can do better with the laser, have at it. Ive tried, and I know its not for me, or at least not in the "overall" scheme of things. I find its to much focus on the gadget and not enough on the important stuff.

Finally, if I'm in a fight, the bad guy is moving, and I'm moving, I absolutely think the laser would give me an advantage. I'm going to be firing at him too.
Ever try sighting with your sights while running/moving? No, I haven't. I'd probably trip over something, then I would be a static target!

I shoot while moving all the time. With a little practice, its actually very easy, and you get good hits, even if you dont have a perfect or even good sight picture, or even a sight picture at all.

I also shoot at targets that are shooting back while Im shooting at them now and then in practice. When I see the target, I usually see my gun and hands on the target as Im "trying" to shoot them. Sometimes I even have a sight picture, depending on just whats happening at the moment and where they are. While all this is going on, Im usually moving, as is the target. If you stand still, you die. If you doubt that, try it. While youre trying it, and trying to not get shot, and trying to shoot the other guy, tell me where you see the dot thats floating around out in space from your laser. Im betting you dont even know you have a laser at that point.

To me, it makes more sense that if you want a dot, it should be on your gun, helping you index the gun to the target, than shooting out of the gun, and you trying to locate the dot somewhere hopefully on the target to know when to shoot.

Now all that is with targets that are moving, trying to shoot you as well, maybe close, maybe not, and you havent caught them flat footed and dont have the drop on them. Now, if they dont know youre there, and your holding youre gun around a corner and looking through a peep whole or mirror, and can see the dot, and you yell out "look, I have a dot on you, dont move" and they wet their pants, that sounds cool, and in that specific scenario, just might work. Its just what about everything else I have issue with.

 

[WildBill45]

not specific enough in the original statement

You guys are right in the fact that I was not specific enough in the original statement, setting up the question for an up close & personal situation... Oh well, we have shortcomings...

That is why I was wondering why everyone went to the other scenarios, which in their perspective they are right in some cases. I agree if it IS a scenario where you know trouble is about but not immediately in front of you, and you have the laser on and ready, then it does become a useful tool.

I also should have added another category to the poll anyway, one that gave an option to opt out and not like them at all.

This was my first attempt at doing a poll, and a fun learning experience it is! At least it got everyone adding information others may not have considered before...

Guns are fun, and that is why they make so many, because everyone has their own taste...