True military encounter with a laser.....sent my son a pair of Crimson Trace grips for his M9 during his first tour in Afghanistan. At the time these were quite new and he was the first in his area to have them. One night while at a road check point, a heavy truck with three Afghani's in the cab attempted to run the road block. Son quickly pulled his M9 and painted the inside of the cab with the laser....occupants were terrified and hit the brakes immediately, they knew what that little red dot meant.
Lasers ... useful for a fight, or a good training tool only?
- Thread starter WildBill45
- Start date
Lasers = next generation practical fighting tool
In addition to a laser sight, we have a 100 Watt IR Solid State laser for work. While this would be a poor hunting tool for anything larger than mouse, but it could be an excellent deterrent:
A very fast 'flick' of an uncooked sausage through it leaves a burn streak.
Paper, clothing and (some) wood ignite in a second or less.
You might be able to use it as an area denial weapon, by pulsing it, it feels like lots of bee stings.
I expect in the next century kinetic weapons may not be the primary weapon of choice in combat.
In addition to a laser sight, we have a 100 Watt IR Solid State laser for work. While this would be a poor hunting tool for anything larger than mouse, but it could be an excellent deterrent:
A very fast 'flick' of an uncooked sausage through it leaves a burn streak.
Paper, clothing and (some) wood ignite in a second or less.
You might be able to use it as an area denial weapon, by pulsing it, it feels like lots of bee stings.
I expect in the next century kinetic weapons may not be the primary weapon of choice in combat.
My vote: "A toy, not a tool"
I've watched several friends of mine use lasers, and they waste so much of their time waiting for the bouncing dot tell them when it's time to shoot, instead of using their natural instincts (and that was on a stationary target). I end up laughing and saying - "Stop chasing the dot and shoot for crying out loud!" Then for the heck of it, I spent some time practicing with a laser equipped gun too, and I was even worse than they were! At self defense distances, I believe that lasers are a counter-intuitive, delay inducing device, and a waste of money.
During the last few years, I've noticed that most of my friends who had installed lasers on their guns, seem to end up removing them, and then going back to using their natural shooting abilities -- unhindered by modern technology.
As for a few posts I've seen here ,about LEO's shooting around corners with mirrors and lasers, and the military use of lasers against moving vehicles? If it helps them do their job, then it's not my place to say otherwise. As for me, a civilian self-defense concealed carrier? I don't think any of those military & police situations pertain to my self defense needs, and I won't ever put a laser on my carry gun.
For play time at the range, yeah, they are a fun gadget, but nothing more.
I've watched several friends of mine use lasers, and they waste so much of their time waiting for the bouncing dot tell them when it's time to shoot, instead of using their natural instincts (and that was on a stationary target). I end up laughing and saying - "Stop chasing the dot and shoot for crying out loud!" Then for the heck of it, I spent some time practicing with a laser equipped gun too, and I was even worse than they were! At self defense distances, I believe that lasers are a counter-intuitive, delay inducing device, and a waste of money.
During the last few years, I've noticed that most of my friends who had installed lasers on their guns, seem to end up removing them, and then going back to using their natural shooting abilities -- unhindered by modern technology.
As for a few posts I've seen here ,about LEO's shooting around corners with mirrors and lasers, and the military use of lasers against moving vehicles? If it helps them do their job, then it's not my place to say otherwise. As for me, a civilian self-defense concealed carrier? I don't think any of those military & police situations pertain to my self defense needs, and I won't ever put a laser on my carry gun.
For play time at the range, yeah, they are a fun gadget, but nothing more.
Do you guys that say instinctive point shooting is faster that have tried lasers have your lasers sighted in?
I know mine are and if the dot is not on the target when I pull the trigger then there's no bullet hole in the target.
I mean if your instinctive pointing of the gun doesn't have the dot on target
your either missing the target or your bullets aren't going where the dot is.
BTW I've found the laser to be a great and inexpensive tool to learn to point the gun instinctivly I sit and practice pointing my CT equiped gun (usually durring comercials LOL) at different spots on the wall then turn the laser on. I'm pretty capable of keeping it on a light switch cover from about any position from across the basement.
I know mine are and if the dot is not on the target when I pull the trigger then there's no bullet hole in the target.
I mean if your instinctive pointing of the gun doesn't have the dot on target
your either missing the target or your bullets aren't going where the dot is.
BTW I've found the laser to be a great and inexpensive tool to learn to point the gun instinctivly I sit and practice pointing my CT equiped gun (usually durring comercials LOL) at different spots on the wall then turn the laser on. I'm pretty capable of keeping it on a light switch cover from about any position from across the basement.
armsmaster270
New member
I have over 30 years combined in L.E. and have Crimson Trace grips on both of my carry guns.
Onward Allusion
New member
3.75" convex auto mirror mounted to the end of a dental mirror stem works very well.
I do something similar, when training other people, I have them shoot a group using their sights. Then take them inside, have them dry fire with the laser for about 15 minutes. Then take them outside to shoot another group using the pistol's sights.
Invariably the second group is a lot better then the first.
I haven't ever used a laser sight,But I've watched people at the target range use them..
I'm Old fashioned and would rather depend on the iron sights and, through practice,muscle memory.
I've found that when I go to the range lately.. I can pop out the bullseye in my targets(7-10 yards) immediately off the get-go and not even aiming iron sight wise..this is practice and muscle memory.
Statistics have it that laser sights slow you down a little and I believe it too.
I'm Old fashioned and would rather depend on the iron sights and, through practice,muscle memory.
I've found that when I go to the range lately.. I can pop out the bullseye in my targets(7-10 yards) immediately off the get-go and not even aiming iron sight wise..this is practice and muscle memory.
Statistics have it that laser sights slow you down a little and I believe it too.
Cheapshooter
New member
Training tool, and toy to impress your friends. Also a great dramatic device for Hollywood!!!
It's an electronic devise, and according to Murphy's Law it will break when you rely on it most.
It's an electronic devise, and according to Murphy's Law it will break when you rely on it most.
WildBill45
New member
mavracer
Personally I point guns that fit my grip naturally, and the dot is where I am looking if as you say, it is sighted in. My dad has a S&W bodyguard with the grip laser, one of the new ones. His will not align with the bore truly, it is a bit right and will not go left far enough. But when I draw and point & shoot the dot is on the right at the same distance, showing me that I am pointing dead on. But I have years of experience, where a newbie may not point naturally ... this is where the problem lies.
If a new guy, or a poor pointing old guy depends on that dot, he will try and look for it in an up close & personal confrontation. This may get he or she killed! There are times a laser would be handy, a spotter may be handy, and/or a K-9 may be handy, but, and there always is a but in life, bad things happen with nothing is handy but your skills!!!
I am not saying lasers are bad; I am saying they a Trojan Horse that can let Murphy's Law have a place to hide ... For fun, or some combat situations they may be the Cat's meow, but for real world in your face, life & death problems no matter what people say or write, they will draw and fire ... period!
Stress and fear brings out the warrior or the coward, with little inbetween!
Personally I point guns that fit my grip naturally, and the dot is where I am looking if as you say, it is sighted in. My dad has a S&W bodyguard with the grip laser, one of the new ones. His will not align with the bore truly, it is a bit right and will not go left far enough. But when I draw and point & shoot the dot is on the right at the same distance, showing me that I am pointing dead on. But I have years of experience, where a newbie may not point naturally ... this is where the problem lies.
If a new guy, or a poor pointing old guy depends on that dot, he will try and look for it in an up close & personal confrontation. This may get he or she killed! There are times a laser would be handy, a spotter may be handy, and/or a K-9 may be handy, but, and there always is a but in life, bad things happen with nothing is handy but your skills!!!
I am not saying lasers are bad; I am saying they a Trojan Horse that can let Murphy's Law have a place to hide ... For fun, or some combat situations they may be the Cat's meow, but for real world in your face, life & death problems no matter what people say or write, they will draw and fire ... period!
Stress and fear brings out the warrior or the coward, with little inbetween!
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This has got to be the best description/explanation Ive seen so far.
For those who have them mounted, are you also looking for that dot, or are you shooting?
My night sights (or red dots) confirm Im on the target, just like the dot. The only difference is, I dont have the extra step of looking for (and hoping I find) the dot on the target to know I can shoot.
And I'm not saying they will make up for a lack of training.weather you are a new shooter or a well seasoned shooter with irons you will need some training with the laser to be able to properly use the laser.
as I and others have stated it is another tool in the tool box you shouldn't throw other tools out because it doesn't replace anything.
I have Crimson Trace grips on three handguns and would not consider buying a handgun that CT did not make grips for. I shoot two of them more or less weekly at five-ten yards and am lethal with most of the 80% that I shoot with laser sights. I am just as lethal with those I shoot with the iron sights, but much slower. I am almost eighty, and cannot even see the iron sights without my glasses on. Since I cannot count on having my glasses on in a SD/HD situation, I concentrate on that red dot. I just love replacing it on the target with a black hole.
Cordially, Jack
Cordially, Jack
orionengnr
New member
There have probably been one thousand threads on this subject, and at least as many opinions.
Mine is this: I do not have a laser on any of my daily carry pistols. But that is not an indictment of lasers.
My personal opinion, which is worth approximately nothing, is this: the best use of a laser is as an aid to point-shooting. I own exactly one pistol equipped with a CT, and about once a month, I spend five minutes with it.
Drill:
Take said pistol, triple check that it is empty. Look across room, pick a wall switch, electric outlet, something small. Point pistol at said target, then activate laser. Are you very close? If so, good. Do it again.
Five minutes of practice per month will sharpen your point shooting skills dramatically. I guarantee it.
Mine is this: I do not have a laser on any of my daily carry pistols. But that is not an indictment of lasers.
My personal opinion, which is worth approximately nothing, is this: the best use of a laser is as an aid to point-shooting. I own exactly one pistol equipped with a CT, and about once a month, I spend five minutes with it.
Drill:
Take said pistol, triple check that it is empty. Look across room, pick a wall switch, electric outlet, something small. Point pistol at said target, then activate laser. Are you very close? If so, good. Do it again.
Five minutes of practice per month will sharpen your point shooting skills dramatically. I guarantee it.
Cheapshooter
New member
A little OT, but I think an interesting question. What is the age of laser proponents vs the age of non-laser fans. Is it that the young guys raised in the high tech world believe that an electronic devise on their firearms are a must. While the old geezers that have been shooting for 1/2 a century would rather rely on their ability to shoot, and not rely on wizardry?
WildBill45
New member
old geezers and rookies that talk...
I would use the word "Experienced' instead of old geezers—you should be so lucky to live long enough to be called such yourself! A half of century of shooting does give one wisdom through such experience. Some of these ‘experienced’ folks on here have real world experience standing in front of armed bad guys, not references from books, videos, and what friends say…
Don’t discount these ‘experienced’ folks; although I will give you that not all who shoot forever do it well, as they didn’t do it good from the start. But, and there always is a but in life … no experience doesn’t count at all! Listen to the old man, he may know what he is doing!!!
I would use the word "Experienced' instead of old geezers—you should be so lucky to live long enough to be called such yourself! A half of century of shooting does give one wisdom through such experience. Some of these ‘experienced’ folks on here have real world experience standing in front of armed bad guys, not references from books, videos, and what friends say…
Don’t discount these ‘experienced’ folks; although I will give you that not all who shoot forever do it well, as they didn’t do it good from the start. But, and there always is a but in life … no experience doesn’t count at all! Listen to the old man, he may know what he is doing!!!
Cheapshooter
New member
I AM
I HAVE
I DO!!!
Some think I do.
64 in April. Shooting since 8 or 9. Hunting, target shooting, reloading, collecting, and a little armature smithing. Never fired upon in anger,
nor the other way around either. A 4 or 5 hour range session almost weekly, weather permitting. Practice in all sorts of shooting disciplines.And by the way, I don't have a laser!!!
Read the first line of my signature!!!
VVVVVVVVV
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My laser/light is on my pistol I use for home defense, not on my carry guns. If an intruder enters my house at night, iron sights and in a lot of cases night sights are not much use when trying to target them in a dark or poorly lit room. With the light you can keep both hands on your gun and light up the room. Shooting with a laser is like shooting a gun with any type of sights, up close or at a distance, you point your gun at your target and the laser dot is right on it, there is no "chasing the dot around". It sure isn't a toy. In a low light or no light situation, it's the best way to illuminate and spot your target.