Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told to leave immediately
- Thread starter Manedwolf
- Start date
Blackstone?
I really don't know who Blackstone is, but Blackwater, like many other PSC companies have not been held accountable for any of their actions since day one, inspite of the small blurb "technically" making them accountable to the UCMJ...ask any JAG officer (I have...one is a neighbor)what the priorities are over in the sandbox...certainly not trying to go after mercs...the lowly 1stLT (0-2) JAG officer's days are filled with Article 15's/Office Hours/Captain's Mast's regarding poor enlisted no can do antics...Captain's and above work with felony/court martial type offenses, and or work with business/contract/international law issues, making sure all military/civilian contracts are "kosher"...prosecuting PSC's is, at the very least, an unclear and murky area, since they have never court martialed a civilian before, and there are still hundreds of qustions as to how to go about doing it if faced with that task, even though purportedly, PSC's now fall under the UCMJ. My neighbor tells me that everyone in the JAG community has no clue as to how to pursue a criminal investigation against these guys...so, inspite of some of you who made a good attempt to show that mercs ARE in fact subject to laws, the fact is, no one has a clue as to how to apply it...and so far, they have been getting away with hundreds of crimes...this does not bode well for Iraqis who at present are quite incapable of doing anything except make idle threats. In a nutshell...theses mercs are getting away with murder.
I really don't know who Blackstone is, but Blackwater, like many other PSC companies have not been held accountable for any of their actions since day one, inspite of the small blurb "technically" making them accountable to the UCMJ...ask any JAG officer (I have...one is a neighbor)what the priorities are over in the sandbox...certainly not trying to go after mercs...the lowly 1stLT (0-2) JAG officer's days are filled with Article 15's/Office Hours/Captain's Mast's regarding poor enlisted no can do antics...Captain's and above work with felony/court martial type offenses, and or work with business/contract/international law issues, making sure all military/civilian contracts are "kosher"...prosecuting PSC's is, at the very least, an unclear and murky area, since they have never court martialed a civilian before, and there are still hundreds of qustions as to how to go about doing it if faced with that task, even though purportedly, PSC's now fall under the UCMJ. My neighbor tells me that everyone in the JAG community has no clue as to how to pursue a criminal investigation against these guys...so, inspite of some of you who made a good attempt to show that mercs ARE in fact subject to laws, the fact is, no one has a clue as to how to apply it...and so far, they have been getting away with hundreds of crimes...this does not bode well for Iraqis who at present are quite incapable of doing anything except make idle threats. In a nutshell...theses mercs are getting away with murder.
Reguardless of Pay/Hours/Danger/Sleep
Or who you are.
If someone paid you for a job and laid boundries and you signed a peice of paper knowing those boundries and you broke them, then you should be held accountable.
Even it is well known that the rules are seldom followed you still know when you do something if the hammer comes down it could be on you.
Risk Assesment would be the best way of putting it I figure.
They got paid they had to sign some sort of contract and "IF' they broke it then they should be held accountable.
Or who you are.
If someone paid you for a job and laid boundries and you signed a peice of paper knowing those boundries and you broke them, then you should be held accountable.
Even it is well known that the rules are seldom followed you still know when you do something if the hammer comes down it could be on you.
Risk Assesment would be the best way of putting it I figure.
They got paid they had to sign some sort of contract and "IF' they broke it then they should be held accountable.
CrazyIvan007
New member
Alnamvet,
Don't blame the folks on the ground for not following through with the laws set in place by our judicial system. Not prosecuting mistakes made by private companies in Iraq is the same as not enforcing laws pertaining to illegal immigration and our southern border. Hold Bush accountable. Hold the Federal Courts accountable.
And, I still say you should not discount the ability and intent of the civilian contractors in Iraq as a whole because of few bad folks who give it a bad name.
I am a white guy...does that mean I am a racist and murderer of minorities because of the amount of those things that many individuals who have been part of my race has committed?
And, I doubt your neighbor JAG officer would candidly discuss his job and his cases with you or anyone else not involved.
Don't blame the folks on the ground for not following through with the laws set in place by our judicial system. Not prosecuting mistakes made by private companies in Iraq is the same as not enforcing laws pertaining to illegal immigration and our southern border. Hold Bush accountable. Hold the Federal Courts accountable.
And, I still say you should not discount the ability and intent of the civilian contractors in Iraq as a whole because of few bad folks who give it a bad name.
I am a white guy...does that mean I am a racist and murderer of minorities because of the amount of those things that many individuals who have been part of my race has committed?
And, I doubt your neighbor JAG officer would candidly discuss his job and his cases with you or anyone else not involved.
Please read more carefully crazy
the boots on the ground are NOT to blame...I never said they were; what they don't have is the experience, funding, or the support of their superiors...the average JAG type over their has zero experience as a investigator/prosecutor...these kids were not drafted from a New York City District Attorney's office...they are volunteers, with student debt, who may not have graduated from a prestigious Ivy League law school, and hence could not get jobs with a cushy Wall Street law firm or a big city high powered DA's office...they don't have the first clue as to what to do, nor have they been tasked to date with pursuing a high profile investigation against PSC firms responsible...of course, there is a silver lining to this, because the last person I want doing this type of an investigation is a kid fresh out of law school and knife and fork school...I believe this issue cries out for a special prosecutor beholden to NO ONE, except to those who have been denied justice.
the boots on the ground are NOT to blame...I never said they were; what they don't have is the experience, funding, or the support of their superiors...the average JAG type over their has zero experience as a investigator/prosecutor...these kids were not drafted from a New York City District Attorney's office...they are volunteers, with student debt, who may not have graduated from a prestigious Ivy League law school, and hence could not get jobs with a cushy Wall Street law firm or a big city high powered DA's office...they don't have the first clue as to what to do, nor have they been tasked to date with pursuing a high profile investigation against PSC firms responsible...of course, there is a silver lining to this, because the last person I want doing this type of an investigation is a kid fresh out of law school and knife and fork school...I believe this issue cries out for a special prosecutor beholden to NO ONE, except to those who have been denied justice.
CrazyIvan007
New member
Alnamvet,
WHOA WHOA WHOA, WAIT WAIT WAIT...
So you are saying people who join the military at a young age are inexperienced? They are not the ones you want running things?
They don't get paid what private lawyers get because they lack experience, knowledge and history.
Yet, you want the young inexperienced military guys to provide security to high-profile individuals not only that, but for a higher pay and you want to get rid of the exprienced, knowledgeable men with a history who work for private contractors who get paid more than a military grunt.
Wow, dude, you are alllllll over the map, I don't get it.
WHOA WHOA WHOA, WAIT WAIT WAIT...
So you are saying people who join the military at a young age are inexperienced? They are not the ones you want running things?
They don't get paid what private lawyers get because they lack experience, knowledge and history.
Yet, you want the young inexperienced military guys to provide security to high-profile individuals not only that, but for a higher pay and you want to get rid of the exprienced, knowledgeable men with a history who work for private contractors who get paid more than a military grunt.
Wow, dude, you are alllllll over the map, I don't get it.
"I'm not citing this incident in perticular, but it does beg the question. How long will Iraqi's just sit and complain about this type of thing before they actually get up, get out, and push the crazy terrorist-fundamentalists out of their country? It should've happened by now, and if they don't care about earning their freedom, why should we?"
You are forgetting it was the US that opened up the country to these heavily armed maniacs. Al-Quaeda was not in Iraq before the invasion. Except of course in the Kurdish area, who were the American allies in this. Funny how things work out. You can't just walk away from the mess you created.
The US is going to be paying for a long time for George W's f*ck up. Well done.
You are forgetting it was the US that opened up the country to these heavily armed maniacs. Al-Quaeda was not in Iraq before the invasion. Except of course in the Kurdish area, who were the American allies in this. Funny how things work out. You can't just walk away from the mess you created.
The US is going to be paying for a long time for George W's f*ck up. Well done.
You are selectively reading
what I am saying...again...if you cherry pick bits and pieces of what you want to hear, then the result is your last post crazy...try to grasp the big picture in my comments...not look for what will make your hopeless case any less hopeless...I don't live in a vacuum, nor do I suffer tunnel vision...therefore, I can see the greater picture, which you have obviously missed, or intentionally avoid.
BTW...again you make mis-statements...I never said my neighbor the JAG discussed HIS cases HERE in America WITH me... we talk daily about everything NOT involving HIS cases here in America...any clearer...or do you wish to put more words in my mouth from your mouth?
what I am saying...again...if you cherry pick bits and pieces of what you want to hear, then the result is your last post crazy...try to grasp the big picture in my comments...not look for what will make your hopeless case any less hopeless...I don't live in a vacuum, nor do I suffer tunnel vision...therefore, I can see the greater picture, which you have obviously missed, or intentionally avoid.
BTW...again you make mis-statements...I never said my neighbor the JAG discussed HIS cases HERE in America WITH me... we talk daily about everything NOT involving HIS cases here in America...any clearer...or do you wish to put more words in my mouth from your mouth?
ArachnoSoldier
New member
i'm not just refering to blackwater. There are contractors doing construction as well.
<---Corps of Engineers.
CrazyIvan007
New member
Alnamvet,
I am simply pointing out your inconsistencies, hypocracies and apparent bias I see.
You are applying different opinions to very similar situations.
You want a high paid lawyer, who is experienced, educated and has a history in his field to prosecute war criminals.
But, on the other hand you want inexperienced troops to provide security detail for high-profile dignitaries.
I don't get it...
And, my argument is not hopeless. There is a law concerning private contractors who engage in battles in Iraq. Enforce it.
You can not expect an inexperienced soldier to protect high-profile individuals. You need to pay more to experienced folks to do it.
You can not expect an inexperienced JAG prosecutor to properly take care of laws. You need to pay more to experienced folks to do it.
I am simply pointing out your inconsistencies, hypocracies and apparent bias I see.
You are applying different opinions to very similar situations.
You want a high paid lawyer, who is experienced, educated and has a history in his field to prosecute war criminals.
But, on the other hand you want inexperienced troops to provide security detail for high-profile dignitaries.
I don't get it...
And, my argument is not hopeless. There is a law concerning private contractors who engage in battles in Iraq. Enforce it.
You can not expect an inexperienced soldier to protect high-profile individuals. You need to pay more to experienced folks to do it.
You can not expect an inexperienced JAG prosecutor to properly take care of laws. You need to pay more to experienced folks to do it.
Again with the emotional inaacuracies...
last I heard, the overwhelming majority of our service members are highly experienced, and within that talent pool, there is a significant percentage who can and have provided the high level security you allude to...you talk as if 100% of our military forces are recent draftees just out of boot camp...please get real...you know very little of what you speak.
last I heard, the overwhelming majority of our service members are highly experienced, and within that talent pool, there is a significant percentage who can and have provided the high level security you allude to...you talk as if 100% of our military forces are recent draftees just out of boot camp...please get real...you know very little of what you speak.
CrazyIvan007
New member
The majority of the troops on the ground in Iraq are on a 2-4 year contract with their respective branch of military. They are between the ages of 19 and 30.
The majority of the private security contractors on the ground in Iraq have been in the military on a 2-4 year contract or more with their respective branch of military. The majority of the private security contractors on the ground in Iraq have been in Law Enforcement for between 5 and 15 years, not including the many of them who also had those military service years. They are between the ages of 32 and 50.
Now who was it you said have more experience?
The majority of the private security contractors on the ground in Iraq have been in the military on a 2-4 year contract or more with their respective branch of military. The majority of the private security contractors on the ground in Iraq have been in Law Enforcement for between 5 and 15 years, not including the many of them who also had those military service years. They are between the ages of 32 and 50.
Now who was it you said have more experience?
CrazyIvan007
New member
AHEM...
"I reject the facts, and substitute my own."
"I reject the facts, and substitute my own."
DonR101395
New member
How so? Do you know how they are operating? What their ROEs are? From reading your posts I would say no.
From talking with those who are working for them as PSD, they are contractually obligated by the DOS to run high profile convoys, their is a bubble around the convoy that if penetrated and time allows they first try signaling the vehicle to back off via flares or by throwing water bottles, they have signs an strobe lights on the trail vehicle telling drivers to stay back. If the drivers don't comply or there is not time to signal they fire on the car. If they are attacked they respond. In short they are not used in offensive operations. You keep trying to paint this picture that they are out there guns a blazing looking for bad guys. If they had their way they would be running low profile convoys to avoid trouble. They get paid the same whether they get shot at or not.
There are approximately 50K contract security guards in Iraqi essentially working for the U.S. If they leave is the U.S. gonna' pull combat troops to do security guard/boyguard duty? Maybe the solution would be to use sailors and airmen to replace the contract security guards, after they get some training.