Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told to leave immediately

The details that people are delving into are immaterial. The Iraqi government asked Blackwater to leave. Iraq is a sovereign nation. Blackwater has to go, simple as that in my mind. If the US doesnt like that, there isnt much to do about it.

If we allow anything else, then we are certainly the occupying army that Bush claims he does not want us to be.
 
The details that people are delving into are immaterial. The Iraqi government asked Blackwater to leave. Iraq is a sovereign nation. Blackwater has to go, simple as that in my mind.
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Actually according to an employee on another board they haven't been PNGd yet. They have had their security license suspended pending investigation. It's pretty easy to say pull a 1000 men out, but what is the plan to backfill those security needs they are currently filling?
You can change the name of the company contracted, but the contractors names will remain the same.....................after several months of vetting a new company, then that company vetting "new" contractors.
 
It's also easy to see why it would be a "popular" among Iraqis to hate Blackwater if someone they know was on the other end of the barrel from them even for justifiable reasons--if it's someone you know you tend to lump the justifiable in as unjustifiable pretty easily.
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Now substitute USA for Blackwater and you see half the problem I have with our occupation of Iraq. (Calling an apple an orange does not make it such and calling our occupation anything else is equally bogus).

I also have heard that they haven't really expelled BW... it appears there may be some minor problems getting anything done with out them. Already everybody seems to be locked down into the green zone and cannot venture out... Glad the nation is pacified...
 
Well...the hired guns out of control

are back on the streets of Baghdad...good move by the Iraqis...give them some additional rope...we ain't seen nothing yet...:rolleyes:
 
What do you think would happen in the U.S. if the Secret Service, U.S. Marshals or DSS is moving a high profile dignitary or prisoner in a marked high profile motorcade and an unknown car attempts to approach the convoy, ignores the motorcade signals to back off and continues to advance on the convoy? Do you think the motorcade will just slow down to let them pass and hope it's a nice guy who can't read or isn't paying attention because he's on his cell phone. I don't think so.
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Hmmm, how many innocent Americans have the Secret Service shot??? No one knows how many Iraqis Blackwater has, but according to one US General who took the trouble to track events in a short period of 2005 - 2 months, in Baghdad alone, Blackwater shot a dozen civilians.

As far as these just being stories told by lying Iraqis - it doesn't make sense to me that *all* Iraqis are liars, and even if by some magical force they all were, the same stories are told by both foreign and American journalists, by foreign and American contractors and government workers, and by coalition and US military. The only people who don't say this, are the Blackwater guys - now let's see, might they have some motivation for not being real honest about misdeeds???

I see why we use these guys - there simply aren't enough US soldiers, that's really what it comes down to... but using mercenaries who are not accountable to anyone for their actions is to me a very bad solution to a manpower shortage.
 
Hmmm, how many innocent Americans have the Secret Service shot??? No one knows how many Iraqis Blackwater has, but according to one US General who took the trouble to track events in a short period of 2005 - 2 months, in Baghdad alone, Blackwater shot a dozen civilians.
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Could that be because we as Americans understand what is appropriate behavior and understand that when you are told not to approach a convoy because you may be shot we don't approach a convoy. Also when we are moving dignitaries in the U.S. we have police directing traffic stopping incidents before trouble gets close to the convoy? Do we have a widespread problem with police supporting or ignoring insurgents in the U.S.?


As far as these just being stories told by lying Iraqis - it doesn't make sense to me that *all* Iraqis are liars, and even if by some magical force they all were, the same stories are told by both foreign and American journalists, by foreign and American contractors and government workers, and by coalition and US military. The only people who don't say this, are the Blackwater guys - now let's see, might they have some motivation for not being real honest about misdeeds???
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I freely admit my lack of trust of them comes from 9 years of training Muslims and being lied to by them on a daily basis. I've seen enough hack jobs and misreporting from the press that I see them in the same light. Sometimes it's a mistake or lack of knowledge, more times than not it's willful misleading to prove their agenda.
I see why we use these guys - there simply aren't enough US soldiers, that's really what it comes down to... but using mercenaries who are not accountable to anyone for their actions is to me a very bad solution to a manpower shortage.
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It's not the role or mission of the military to provide security guards for DOS employees, that is the mission of DSS. I keep seeing mercenary used and it just doesn't apply. A mercenary force is an offensive paramilitary force. These guys are used in as a defensive protective/security force. Think Wackenhut with better equipment and training and personnel.
I have no doubt that occasionally someone gets hired who shouldn't, but that doesn't mean that everyone of them is cut from that same cloth.
 
video?

This is a news clip I got off yahoo around 1 am Sunday:

* Iraq: Blackwater guards fired unprovoked AP - 42 minutes ago

Soad Ali, right, tends to her husband, Hassan Jabir, 37, as he recovers from gunshot wounds in a hospital in Baghdad, Iraq on Saturday, Sept. 22, 2007. Jabir, a lawyer, says he was in his car in the Mansour neighborhood when guards in a U.S. State Department convoy opened fire, shooting him four times. Iraq's Interior Ministry has expanded its investigation into other incidents allegedly involving Blackwater USA security guards amid the furor following a deadly shooting that claimed at least 11 lives, a spokesman said Saturday.(AP Photo/ Hadi Mizban)
AP - 42 minutes ago

BAGHDAD - Iraqi investigators have a videotape that shows Blackwater USA guards opened fire against civilians without provocation in a shooting last week that left 11 people dead, a senior Iraqi official said Saturday. He said the case was referred to the Iraqi judiciary.
 
I have heard that Blackwater is immune to any legal action in Iraq, but even if that is true, I believe that US citizens who commit crimes abroad can be prosecuted for those crimes upon return to the US.
 
It's getting more interesting...

and some of you thought that I was the only one who saw things the way they really are? Apparently Congress and the Defense Department are having the same concerns I have had about these wild geese...:rolleyes:
 
Last I saw they were immune to Iraqi prosecution but as already pointed out they CAN be helkd accountable by the USA. I am more inclined to wait and see what the US investigation shows as I do not trust anything coming out of the locals' investigation.
 
As far as anything happening to Blackwater for anything, I highly doubt it:
- The US doesn't have a lot of alternatives to them
- The Iraqi government can't do without US help
- Any findings of 'guilt' would make our administration look bad
- The owner was a Whitehouse intern for G.H.W. Bush, and has contributed
$200,000 to the Republican National Committee, and has hired some top
Bush administration officials (e.g., Cofer Black), so this guy knows how to
plug into political power.

About the only hope I have is that Secretary Gates' guys will actually look into Blackwater's tactics, and seek to adjust their attitude.
 
The only acceptable solution

to this problem is to kick BW out of the country and cancel all contracts and permits/licenses to do business outside of the US...secondly, scrap the current rules of engagement, and write the ROI that are clear and understandable, free of nebulous legaleeze, and put all contractors on notice that not only the UCMJ, but civilian Iraqi law, International law, and US law can and will apply to them in any incident arising from unlawful behaviors. BW may very well be politically connected to the current cabal/regime, but their day of reckoning is coming...I see a future where these misfits will be competing for security contracts in inner city used car lots...nothing more.
 
This has been an interesting read. I didn't know much about the Blackwater Company or its employees.

I guess I'd have to defer to Alnamvet on this one. He's seen both sides of this situation, (i.e., the real soldiers and the private security forces).

Do the Blackwater employees go through some training and/or clearances? You know, like a soldier goes through basic training?

I mean, if these guys are working in a war zone, you'd like to have them more akin to real soldiers wouldn't you? FWIW, I would.

Real soldiers are more controlled in their reactions from what I've seen, etc.
 
The only acceptable solution to this problem is to kick BW out of the country and cancel all contracts and permits/licenses to do business outside of the US...secondly, scrap the current rules of engagement, and write the ROI that are clear and understandable, free of nebulous legaleeze, and put all contractors on notice that not only the UCMJ, but civilian Iraqi law, International law, and US law can and will apply to them in any incident arising from unlawful behaviors. BW may very well be politically connected to the current cabal/regime, but their day of reckoning is coming...I see a future where these misfits will be competing for security contracts in inner city used car lots...nothing more.
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Exactly how would that solve any perceived issue? Who would fill the positions they are currently filling? Turning employees of the DOS over to a foreign govt, I take it you would have been fine with the DOD turning you over to a foreign govt anytime that govt felt like making a claim?
You keep making claims of their criminal acts? But after repeated requests can't come up with a conviction anywhere? I'm not sure what ax you have to grind with these guys, but the majority of them served honorably both in the military and in defense of the DOS. From what I have seen of your posts you follow the liberal tactic of, if you shout it loud enough and long enough it is fact.
Fact they are being investigated for an incident which involved shooting. The cause for the shooting is contested by both sides.
Fact less than two weeks after said incident they were back at work doing their jobs protecting DOS people.
Fact two former employees who were fired for improprieties are under investigation for arms smuggling.
Fact none of us are walking in their shoes or has first hand knowledge of what took place.
How about we let the federal investigators do their jobs and if they find BW at fault, let them deal with it. Until then, how about we stick to facts instead of pointless innuendos that are based on nothing more than personal bias.
 
You know...

With all the yelling and screaming about Blackwater being kicked out and stuff, truth of the matter is the Iraqis didn't want America to stick around after Saddam was caught. Regardless of factions of Sunni vs. Shia vs. Al Qaeda etc. and no matter how people try to justify America being there, they have every right to fight back against an occupier. Plain and simple fact is, if your "liberators" have the intention of staying around and controlling your destiny with the guise of giving you freedom, all it does is create more problem. Freedom at the point of a bayonet sure sounds awesome especially when you try to force it on an area of the world that has been fighting for the last 6000-8000 years!! What makes a 200 something year old country think it can change it with such arrogance? The entire purpose of this stupid war isn't even to fight terrorism.


Epyon
 
Alnamvet said:
free of nebulous legaleeze
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Do you really think this is going to happen?

I believe that BW will be there as long as some profiteering continues to be favorable.

Just as I learned during the Vietnam era of protesting (and the killing under Pol Pot), the American public doesn't really care as long as the white people aren't dying.

You could gun down a Muslim child holding an armful of medical supplies, in broad daylight, on video, by a drunken mercenary using a stolen communist RPG and most Americans would say, "Aren't those the same people who blew up New York?"

We have a CW song where the singer admits he doesn't know the difference between Iraq and Iran.

As you remember, there is a famous Life Magazine picture showing a Vietnamese general holding a revolver to a frightened prisoners head. Using that idea, we Americans made a film out of the premise.

The film won awards. I cannot remember the general's name. Go figure.
 
We could always just leave...

If it isn't BW being yelled at it will be the US ARMY, oh, they already do that. The only difference is it is easier for politicos and the media to gang rape BW and not "The Troops".

It is a war zone and people are going to die. Hold BW to the terms of their contract which is the UCMJ but the Iraqi or any other gov't can go pee up a rope.
 
Something else to point out...

All that damn money Blackwater pays its men etc. gee who funds it? The taxpayers via the government, so instead of improving the gear and raising pay for our uniformed men and women who fight for a cause, we're giving it to a private group? What a waste, guess support the troops means sell them out and bleed them dry, this country fails!:mad::mad::mad: Anyone else wanna make an argument that this "war" is about freedom, and that attacking Iraq is justified when the men behind 9/11 were SAUDI, at a time when Al Qaeda was not in Iraq because Saddam didn't want competition!?


Epyon
 
Something else to point out...All that damn money Blackwater pays its men etc. gee who funds it? The taxpayers via the government, so instead of improving the gear and raising pay for our uniformed men and women who fight for a cause, we're giving it to a private group? What a waste, guess support the troops means sell them out and bleed them dry, this country fails! Anyone else wanna make an argument that this "war" is about freedom, and that attacking Iraq is justified when the men behind 9/11 were SAUDI, at a time when Al Qaeda was not in Iraq because Saddam didn't want competition!?
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Something else to point out......
The mission they are fulfilling is a DOS/DSS mission, not a DOD mission. Different organizations, different budgets, different requirements. If they weren't paying a private security company, they would be paying DSS agents that they don't have and aren't set up to train en-mass. They would be paying salary, health care, retirement, disability, survivor benefits etc.


BTW Blackwater provides driving and shooting training to the DSS as well.
 
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