Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told to leave immediately

They (the military)

have always used their own for all kind of protective details in all previous wars/police actions...in some instances, the Secret Service may have escorted high profile politicos in the past...I for one have flown "big shots" in 'Nam, and the "body guards" were always specially trained soldiers.
 
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Laws to keep them in order are in place. Laws to allow them to do this are in place. Laws and freedoms to allow them to make money are in place. War and battle has always, throughout history, been fought by citizens on some level. They are trained, skilled and experienced.

So, what is the problem? Let them fight the fight, make the money, and provide their services if they are willing and able and allowed to by law. Do you want your right and freedom of capitalism taken away? I don't.

If the govt. doesn't press charges when laws are broken, don't blame the common good, blame those who do not enforce the law and blame those who break the law. But, there are many many many many people who do the right thing. Don't hold them responsible for those who do wrong. Same as I don't want my gun taken away because someone was killed by a criminal with one.
 
They (the military) has always used their own for all kind of protective details in all previous wars/police actions
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How many of those were at times that the US military had a draft in effect that funnelled huge amounts of manpower into the area? That is not the case now and there is a sizeable outcry against each troop sent. That is another big factor in contractor's favor, you don't see any of them protesting the war or complaining about being sent.
 
I forgot, if the legal system is in place to prosecute for misconduct it shoudl be used as appropriate. I don't agree with a blank check but I would also doubt any finding from the Iraqis on the incident is without a definite pro Iraqi anti Contractor tilt.
 
Need to make the military more attractive

financially then...those who volunteer know that soldiering is not always about helping flood/hurricane/tsunami victims...war is a component of their job description...if we don't have a draft (which I thoroughly support), then attract more with money incentives, and give sizeable bonuses to those already in for staying in...what we get in the end, are soldiers/sailors/airmen who can do the job of these mercs, with the comfort in knowing that there are rules of war/UCMJ, and the wheels of justice will be swift and decisive should any servicemember decide he's Wyatt Earp. As it is now, I have yet to see a special prosecutor appointed to investigate not only this criminal act, but the many that have occurred in the past (which in the cases of past indiscretions, the suspects have been whisked out of the country, and have yet to be held accountable). As far as the Iraqis having a self interest in this matter, and a bias against civilian contractors...that is their absolute right as a sovereign nation, however tenuous that government may be.
 
No nation that cannot garner the volunteered support of its populance to remain free deserves to do so. The very concept of a draft is slavery to the state. I would far prefer a military comprised completely of mercenaries that are hired by the people to carry out their will and do so of their own free will than an army comprised of slaves.

A mercenary is a free man, able to choose his cause and employer.

A draftee is a slave to the state which cannot convince him of the value of his service except through the threat of imprisonment.

The military can ignore justice with our own troops as well as with contractors. That oversight has not been maintained, according to some, is not the fault of the mercenaries but of the very government that is responsible for it. The problem is NOT mercenaries, the problem is government oversight which could easily be missing in plenty of incidents involving members of the military.
 
Wowww.....

I was a slave for 30+ years and didn't know it...gee...it never felt like I was enslaved...heck....I'd give them another 30 years if they'd let me...:rolleyes:
 
I was a slave for 30+ years and didn't know it...gee...it never felt like I was enslaved...heck....I'd give them another 30 years if they'd let me...
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You were drafted for 30 years? Wow, you got screwed.
 
There is no freedom when the state threatens to send you to prison if you do not serve them. I would be willing to bet Alnamvet that the majority of your 30 years were voluntary. If it wasn't you need to start reading what you sign more carefully.
 
DonR101395
From talking with those who are working for them as PSD, they are contractually obligated by the DOS to run high profile convoys, their is a bubble around the convoy that if penetrated and time allows they first try signaling the vehicle to back off via flares or by throwing water bottles, they have signs an strobe lights on the trail vehicle telling drivers to stay back. If the drivers don't comply or there is not time to signal they fire on the car.
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So, by your own pro-mercenary description, these guys drive through populous areas and enforce an invisible, moving no-citizen zone as they drive, so that anyone entering this proximity and not immediately recognizing it and running away, is killed. And you think that's a legitimate way of conducting routine travel? Do you think the Iraqi security companies will just nonchalantly slaughter their own people like that? Let's see, anyone within 50 meters of our moving vehicles as we drive through unannounced is killed... And you wonder why the Iraqis want them out???
 
They (the military) have always used their own for all kind of protective details in all previous wars/police actions...in some instances, the Secret Service may have escorted high profile politicos in the past...I for one have flown "big shots" in 'Nam, and the "body guards" were always specially trained soldiers.
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This is not the same thing. You are talking about high level members of the U.S. government, "big shots" as you call them. The majority of PCs are working with the DSS to provide security to the DOS members who go out and interact with the civilian population on a day to day basis. You would have to invest a huge amount of manpower to provide security for all the low level folks going out to do the day to day work of the DOS. In these days of an all volunteer force, you cannot waste front line troops to do that.
 
So, by your own pro-mercenary description, these guys drive through populous areas and enforce an invisible, moving no-citizen zone as they drive, so that anyone entering this proximity and not immediately recognizing it and running away, is killed. And you think that's a legitimate way of conducting routine travel? Do you think the Iraqi security companies will just nonchalantly slaughter their own people like that? Let's see, anyone within 50 meters of our moving vehicles as we drive through unannounced is killed... And you wonder why the Iraqis want them out???
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You got it. When they are being attacked by insurgents in vehicles on a daily basis and are contractually bound to transport high profile dignitaries an a high profile convoy and the ROE given to them by the legal eagles allows it. I've got no problem with it. Also who said they were starting the engagement by shooting the people inside the car first. Iraqis killed their own citizens for more than 30 years, so yea I know they would do it without a second thought. Particularly if they thought that person was from another tribe, Muslim sect or the guy who didn't do their laundry the way they asked last week.
Many seem to be ready to hang these guys for something that hasn't even been determined a crime at this point. I'll wait until it's determined by a competent authority rather than take the word of some Iraqis who aren't known to be the most truthful when it's going to benefit them or some liberal legislator with an ax to grind.
 
I've got no problem with it. Iraqis killed their own citizens for more than 30 years, so yea I know they would do it without a second thought. Particularly if they thought that person was from another tribe, Muslim sect or the guy who didn't do their laundry the way they asked last week.
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I think that's a gross oversimplification of what's going on. Americans kill Americans also, so why don't you just reason in your simple way that therefore Americans are incapable of living peacefully and deserve to die? That's really the sum total of your logic and standards with Iraqis, right? As far as your assurance that this is how the Iraqis will handle it, that is a rediculous statement. Millions of Iraqis already walk and drive those dangerous streets every day, but they don't travel by shooting everyone in sight.
 
Millions of Iraqis already walk and drive those dangerous streets every day, but they don't travel by shooting everyone in sight.
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They also aren't being hunted daily by scum who would love nothing more than to capture them for propaganda purposes then mutilate them on video for the pleasure of showing their Muslim brothers the video.
 
If you're trying to say that the Blackwater guys should be more afraid than the ordinary Iraqis, I would disagree. The Iraqi death toll is *much* higher than the coalition death toll, and the Iraqi citizens walking and driving those streets by and large, have no body armor, and no weapons, and that population of course includes women and children... yet they do walk and drive them, though I am sure they are afraid, as these are dangerous times there.

I really don't know about this particular incident, but the complaints about excessive and indiscriminate use of force by the Blackwater guys have been going on for years. And you yourself acknowledge and even endorse them killing ordinary citizens, merely because they exist. Under such conditions, I am not surprised the Iraqi government wants them expelled, and I am also not surprised it would be a popular move there with all the people.
 
It's also easy to see why it would be a "popular" among Iraqis to hate Blackwater if someone they know was on the other end of the barrel from them even for justifiable reasons--if it's someone you know you tend to lump the justifiable in as unjustifiable pretty easily.
 
If you're trying to say that the Blackwater guys should be more afraid than the ordinary Iraqis, I would disagree. The Iraqi death toll is *much* higher than the coalition death toll, and the Iraqi citizens walking and driving those streets by and large, have no body armor, and no weapons, and that population of course includes women and children... yet they do walk and drive them, though I am sure they are afraid, as these are dangerous times there.
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What I'm saying is that those women and children are getting caught in the wrong place at the wrong time while insurgents are hunting convoys. They are intentionally triggering ambushes in populated places because they know innocents will be hurt. It doesn't matter if they are hit by 5.56 or 7.62x39 they blame will be placed on the Americans, regardless of the fact that they were doing their job of protecting a DOS employee going from point A to point B and were ambushed for simply driving down the street. They have no choice about where they are hit, but I won't fault them for defending themselves while making a living for their family.



I really don't know about this particular incident, but the complaints about excessive and indiscriminate use of force by the Blackwater guys have been going on for years. And you yourself acknowledge and even endorse them killing ordinary citizens, merely because they exist. Under such conditions, I am not surprised the Iraqi government wants them expelled, and I am also not surprised it would be a popular move there with all the people.
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Any incident that happens get blamed on BW. They are the biggest, therefore the largest target. I never endorsed anything accept what is in there ROE. If an ordinary citizen bursts the bubble and ignores 1. the signs telling them to stay back 2. the strobe lights on the vehicle to bring attention to the sign 3. them signaling the car to backoff they are a threat and should be treated as such.



What do you think would happen in the U.S. if the Secret Service, U.S. Marshals or DSS is moving a high profile dignitary or prisoner in a marked high profile motorcade and an unknown car attempts to approach the convoy, ignores the motorcade signals to back off and continues to advance on the convoy? Do you think the motorcade will just slow down to let them pass and hope it's a nice guy who can't read or isn't paying attention because he's on his cell phone. I don't think so.
 
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