Iraq bans Blackwater operations, all Blackwater personnel told to leave immediately

I hate to say it...

...but I told you so...the laws regarding accountability and prosecution of miscreant mercenaries is so vague, that defense lawyers could successfully argue that BW mercs do not fall under the UCMJ, and if they did, the military is in no position to take on the additional task of investigating these cowboys, given the overwhelming task of just dealing with internal problems that we don't here much about...couple that with the immunity from prosecution by a foreign "entity", you essentially have cowboys doing what cowboys of the past used to do...kill at will, and get away with it...now, there is a bill that should pass, introduced by a Sen. Price, that will close these loopholes...who's first in line for some delicious humble pie?

Want a link? Find it yourself;)
 
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

In effect these guys are above the law and acting like it. They can kill whoever they want and get away with it. The Iraqi government accepts that they killed eleven innocent civilians, so the most they can so is start a discussion as to whether they are accountable or not. What a crock of sh1t.

I guess those donations to the Bush campaign really paid off.
 
I hate to say it...
...but I told you so...the laws regarding accountability and prosecution of miscreant mercenaries is so vague, that defense lawyers could successfully argue that BW mercs do not fall under the UCMJ, and if they did, the military is in no position to take on the additional task of investigating these cowboys, given the overwhelming task of just dealing with internal problems that we don't here much about...couple that with the immunity from prosecution by a foreign "entity", you essentially have cowboys doing what cowboys of the past used to do...kill at will, and get away with it...now, there is a bill that should pass, introduced by a Sen. Price, that will close these loopholes...who's first in line for some delicious humble pie?
Click to expand...

I see you're still not backing your statements up with any facts, just your speculation and opinion:D

They are working under the umbrella of the DOS, with DOS credentials. If they need to be prosecuted could they not be prosecuted under current laws governing DSS agents? If they are working a DOD contract there is already law in place that says they fall under the UCMJ. I'm not seeing a disconnect here.
BTW: Nothing has been proven a prosecutable offense yet, it's all been a bunch of saber rattling and screeching. If they are committing mass murder it shouldn't take even an incompetent investigator/lawyer too long to make a case.


Oh yea, I saw an article that says Blackwater is providing security to the FBI team investigating them in Iraq. I'll post it as soon as I find it again.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_...lackwater_to_guard_fbi_team_probing_it-2.html
 
A student of military history should understand that the govt has to maintain plausible deniability. When Jackson took florida Monroe tsked but kept florida. Same thing here, with a whole extra level of protection for the govt. The powers that be don't even have to blame misbehaving generals, they can blame the misbehaving guys the generals hired. A very old story with a new twist.
 
A merc is a merc.

i don't care what they call themselves or who they're working for. The armed Blackwater personnel are mercenaries. Period. If they are so well trained and professional you'd think they would be able to differentiate between armed assailants and unarmed civilians. The incident that has everyone scrutinizing them sounds to me like the result of untrained, trigger-happy fools who are playing at being soldiers. At the very least it indicates a complete lack of discipline and ineffective command. I'd be surprised if they went into the field with any real command structure at all, one shoots, they all shoot. No doubt many of them would be of the calibre of the heroic school guard who broke a sixteen year old girls wrist over cake crumbs on the canteen floor.
 
Then there must be reciprocity, of course.

No matter what your view of mercenaries can be, if our miscreants stop shooting, then the Muslim insurgents are going to quit killing Americans as well, correct?

Look, BW makes me shake my head. My guess is that our 'higher ups' have hired the very best killers they can find. Further, the best place to look for well trained personnel is the ranks of the retired military. The pictures I have seen show these guys to be very physically fit, and bristling with some very modern firearms. I saw one guy wearing what appears to be a diving watch, if you catch my drift.

At some point you have to say, "Well, if their nuts are going to try and kill me for doing my job, then heck, I'm going to find the best gunfighters I can for some very painful payback."

And let's admit something right up front. Whether or not you support the war (and my resolve slips day by day) I do not believe in jihad as an excuse to kill my countrymen.

Some nut-job jumps out of the bushes, squealing the Qoran and tries to light up an RPG, he's sort of asking to get smoked by a "bodyguard."

I am not a soldier, never was. I hold no licenses, and I have been issued no papers, VISAs or implied service guaranties as an independent contractor for any job or volunteer application.

Having said that, I think I'd be so scared I'd shoot just about anything I thought was a danger, thereby violating American law, The Geneva Convention, along with illegal ammo use as underlined by The Hague.

If Habib the local DA and used camel salesman came up to me and said, "Tourist, I'm arresting you for violations under our laws," I would seriously opine the idea of dying in an Iraqi prison.

And then I'd shoot him.
 
Seems that the folks actually in a position to weigh the costs and benefits (The Iraqi Government) put them back to work.

Funny, huh?
 
A question to all those here defending Blackwater: what about the guy last Christmas eve who got drunk, shot and killed the bodyguard of an Iraqi VP? The only reason anyone even knows about this is that the Blackwater guy confessed to employers, who fired him and whisked him back to the USA. He is free, somewhere, and hasn't even been charged with anything.

Who knows how many Iraqis have been shot, run off the road, etc, unnecessarily? Does anyone, except Iraqis, even care? Private contractors still have complete immunity from Iraqi laws, and as of today, might only liable for US prosecution, which means they may be charged, not that they must be, if they commit crimes in Iraq. That is, if the new regulations even get signed into law.
 
pitz96 said:
Does anyone, except Iraqis, even care?
Click to expand...

As I have stated, the protest marches in Madison stopped as the risk to white students in the draft ended. As you'll remember, Pol Pot killed so many of his own people that they stack bones for ceremonial display.

"Hey, no middle class whites die, not of my problem."

And let me tell you something. I'm not sure I'd believe the Iraqi. Why should his word be sancrosanct and the American automatically be branded guilty?

I'm no big fan of mercenaries (unless they are my mercenaries), but they should have the moral right to shoot back in a free-fire zone.
 
A question to all those here defending Blackwater: what about the guy last Christmas eve who got drunk, shot and killed the bodyguard of an Iraqi VP? The only reason anyone even knows about this is that the Blackwater guy confessed to employers, who fired him and whisked him back to the USA. He is free, somewhere, and hasn't even been charged with anything.

Who knows how many Iraqis have been shot, run off the road, etc, unnecessarily? Does anyone, except Iraqis, even care? Private contractors still have complete immunity from Iraqi laws, and as of today, might only liable for US prosecution, which means they may be charged, not that they must be, if they commit crimes in Iraq. That is, if the new regulations even get signed into law.
Click to expand...

As I've said before there are bad apples that do get into the system. It doesn't matter where you work or what line of work you're in, there will always be people who get hired who shouldn't.
The company fired him and charges should have been brought by the U.S. govt. The company didn't support his actions, it's the U.S. govt responsibility to investigate and bring charges, not the companies. U.S. authorities could have detained the guy at his port of entry for questioning, they could have investigated and and filed charges after he arrived home. From my understanding they are still investigating it. The wheels of justice aren't always swift or fair.
I can tell you from first hand experience that many times the first action with many military personnel who have legal issues that could get them in a bind with a host nation are as you put it whisked out of the country. The event is investigated and appropriate action is taken.
 
Private security

As I understand it. In the private security industry one gets what one pays for. Pinkerton for example has people who direct traffic to industrial espioage investigators. BW I suspect has a variety of skill levels available to chose from dependent on price, from "cowboys" to profesional soldiers. Is not the French Foriegn Legion a mercenary force? Just some thoughts
 
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It looks like things are much worse than originally reported when this massacre took place. It may be a pivotal event in Iraq.

October 5, 2007
The Blackwater Massacre
Out of control 'private' contractors terrorize Iraq
by Justin Raimondo

On September 16, as a car approached Nisour Square, all the folly and tragedy of the Iraq war was enacted on a Baghdad street. In the vehicle were two Iraqis: Ahmed Haithem was driving his mother, Mohassin, to the local hospital, where her husband worked as a pathologist. They never made it.

Instead, four armored vehicles manned by "private" guards employed by Blackwater USA moved into position and fired: Ahmed was hit, but the car continued on its path, out of control. When the smoke cleared, and the casualties counted, 17 Iraqis were dead and 24 wounded. The Washington Post cites one anonymous high-ranking U.S. official as saying:

"This is a nightmare. We had guys who saw the aftermath, and it was very bad. This is going to hurt us badly. It may be worse than Abu Ghraib, and it comes at a time when we're trying to have an impact for the long term."

It's a nightmare alright, especially for the Iraqi people, who have long resented this "private" army of thugs and wannabe heroes, apparently subject to nonexistent rules of engagement. The Americans have slaughtered, abused and otherwise alienated their "liberated" charges before, and the Iraqis did little but bleat a few feeble protests: this time, however, the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki reacted with authentic anger. The Iraqi ministry of the interior ordered Blackwater out of the country, and, although the U.S. State Department initially succeeded in getting this order rescinded, that reversal now appears to have been reversed. If Maliki sticks to his guns, the Blackwater massacre could mark a new phase in the war, one that bodes ill for the Americans.

This new phase was prefigured by what Seymour Hersh dubbed "the redirection" and made manifest in the alleged "success" of our alliance with the Sunni tribesmen of Anbar and Diyala provinces. As U.S. war aims in Iraq have shifted from stamping out the Sunni insurgency to preparing for war with Iran, the potential for conflict with the Shi'ite-dominated government has increased: that's why that anonymous senior official described the Blackwater massacre as possibly "worse than Abu Ghraib." The September 16 incident could be the pivot point leading to the previously unthinkable: a demand by the democratically-elected government of Iraq that U.S. forces begin withdrawing.

Ah, but they wouldn't do that – especially when their very lives depend on the presence of U.S. soldiers – now would they?

Don't count on it: after all, they can always turn to their natural allies in Tehran to afford them all the protection they need.

As Henry Waxman waxes eloquent about how bad it is for the American taxpayer that we are "outsourcing" security for U.S. diplomats in Iraq to private companies like Blackwater – and caves to a Justice Department request that places the September 16 massacre beyond the purview of his committee hearings – we are in danger of missing the meaning of that deadly day. One has only to read the New York Times coverage – which is, so far, the only coherent narrative – to get a very clear sense of the horror and tragedy of our involvement in Iraq.
Read the full article
 
Pat, you're a riot...;)

"It looks like things are much worse..."

Then you proceed to post a piece from ANTIWAR.COM?

I've long suspected that you were an pro Bush guy trying to make the antiwar types look like loons, but you might've jumped the shark with this one.

:p
 
Perhaps we're just too close to this issue now, these events are just unfolding for most Americans.

As you know, they are still investigating civilian deaths from the Korean War.

Frankly, starting a shooting war in the middle east is a losing proposition from the git go. The USA now joins a long line of losers dating back to The Crusades that have grabbed onto this tar-baby with the addled idea we could win.

Having said that, who's the best people to send? Choir boys? Martha Stewart? The Mouseketeers?

Sadly, BW was the perfect organization to send. If I wanted to stay alive in the sewer I'd ask the mercs who was the most vicious, crazed killer of the bunch and I'd hang onto his coattails.

This isn't a war, it's a sad little shooting gallery. In many ways, our young soldiers and their ideals are poor choices for this insanity.

Send the trained assassins who want to kill, and seem to be good at it.
 
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