I'm SO SICK of this illegal alien situation!

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I'm not sure I understand.... I'm quite certain many illegals ship their money back to Mexico. This transfer of funds has spawned a whole mini-industry here in Los Angeles. The goods and services illegals consume here would, I think, be relatively little. Of course once their families arrive, some of them consume almost as much government money as they earn in their job.

OT:Every major city will probably end up looking like Los Angeles in 20 years anyway. Sound racist? Too bad, I don't have to like Central/South American culture. I tire of looking at thousands of ugly little bodegas bordering filthy sidewalks. I'm getting out of this city as soon as possible... Since I'm not fabulously wealthy I have to live in what constitutes 80-90% of the city, essentially an upscale third world country, with the benefits of a post office. No, I don't live in the ghetto, I've never been mugged... I simply do not enjoy living here, and it's my right as an American to complain and feel righteously indignant.

I think the "is it right or not" debate can go on forever (though it seems pretty clear that illegal alien means illegal alien...). But does this influx of foreigners profit our country? How many of the people I see standing in line to get their tax payer provided welfare are illegal, I can't say. Technically I believe illegals do not qualify for welfare. However I can tell you that not only are some illegals illegally recieving this welfare, but their anchor babies qualify them for government money, welfare, Medicaid, social security etc. Every person (IE immigrant, because they all are) living near my friend within a 2 block radius is on government aid. They pay their car payments and satellite bill this way, in addition some of them keep up to 20 illegals in their garages. I know this because they openly talk about it, and my friend has seen the illegals sleeping in there on many occasions. Report it you say? Surely you live well outside of "Injun Country". The perpetrators would be back on the street in days regardless of whatever penalty there is for harboring illegal aliens. There simply is not enough space in the prison system for non-drug addicts. Plenty of space for them. Those same illegals would recross the border within days. So you have now accomplished nothing, and what do you get in return? Being the only white devil within miles of this little incident, and having already made many enemies by asking them to turn their Ranchero music down, your life is now a living hell. Human feces will show up on your doorstep, sturdy wine bottles will be thrown through what few windows you haven't already converted to lexan while you are in the room, trash will be strewn over your yard, children will break into your house with adult assistance and pilfer things... This all happened by the way... Cheer up, only 29 and a half years left on that mortgage. I know an educator in the public school system who, in the course of discussing with the parents the prospects of their child's "future" discovered that they intentionally keep their often multiple children at a near retarded mental level, because this equals a bonus in the government check. The more retarded kids you have, the better off you are.

The rapid, near uncontrolled traffic of humans coming through our southern borders is bringing with it many diseases and criminals. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040126-120103-7792r.htm

Absconders? More obviously potential threats to national security... The Washington sniper (Lee Boyd Malvo, why do they always have three names...) was apparently one.

Are all illegals disease ridden criminalistic sponges, of course not. But these are desperate people, their motives often not influenced by right or wrong but because of their circumstances, the simple instinct to take, to survive.

We have enough people leaching off the government teat as it is. Even without this new generation of illegals, we would have to raise taxes by 90 percent to make social security work. Alternatively we could cut Medicaid and welfare both by 60 percent. I worry that we're putting money and fuzzy bleeding heart politics over what is best for our country.

Slow down the rate of immigration by cracking down hard and effectively on illegal immigration. Reforming the welfare state wouldn't hurt either. This isn't the land of milk and honey, we have bills to pay! If some random vagrant came into your home and demanded to be fed and cared after would you take care of him? The immigrants that CAN come here and not suck us dry can do so through legal channels, prove that they are smart and hard working.
 
Welfare requires a social security card and getting a social security card requires U.S. citizenship or valid immigration status:
To apply for a Social Security number and card:

* Complete an Application For A Social Security Card (Form SS-5); and
* Show us original documents or copies certified by the issuing agency proving:
o U.S. citizenship or immigration status [including Department of Homeland Security (DHS) permission to work in the United States];
o Age; and
o Identity.
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So, apparently nobody receiving welfare is an illegal alien. ;)

Seems to me a cheaper and more effective solution is to crack down on employers of illegal aliens (already against the law, just enforce it!!!) and figure out how to provide social security cards correctly. I'd bet welfare abuse by americans (pulling multiple checks from multiple welfare offices using different identities) is huge.

The only way we could afford to build and keep a fence around our borders is to hire Mexicans, and then make sure they maintain it from the south side.
 
So, apparently nobody receiving welfare is an illegal alien.
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LOL ;)

I'd bet welfare abuse by americans (pulling multiple checks from multiple welfare offices using different identities) is huge.
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I assure you you are correct. The communities of immigrants are so massive here, entire DMVs and welfare stations (forgot what they are called, never been in one, only seen the lines outside) are stocked 100% with them. I'm sure there is no fraudulence and nepotism/racism going on there at all... You can go in there and get your government check for your 20 retarded half eskimo dependents if your skin is the right color.
 
I was referring more to Badbob's comment than your's, wingman. I hate FOX news...I don't believe we do have a free market. I was referencing the economic theory of specialization of labor, more than anything else. If someone else can do it cheaper, then they will...that's the beauty of capitalism. It always finds equilibrium over time.
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Sorry about that I misread your statement, also I've lived and worked on our southern border over 20 years and have seen first hand the problems of uncontrolled immigration. I was raised with the ww2 generation and I admit of I have become very disappointed with the path our country is taking, the middle-class is dying and it due to many factors, we certainly in my mind cannot afford to gauge the strength of our country on the stock market. There is a mind set now in our corporations of profit without thought on the impact to the country and of course this includes the addiction to cheap illegal labor.:(
 
Dude, I understand.

I'm not all about ILLEGAL immigrants. But have you guys ever looked at the immigration test? It's HARD. I say if they're gonna be here, get them paying taxes. Make it easy to tax them. Get their families here with them, so the loot STAYS IN HOUSE. Make it dead simple to be here legally...and even easier to let the gov't get part of your paycheck.

It seems some of you seem to think I am in support of illegal aliens, which isn't the case. I just don't see a way to get the existing ones out, and because our laws are written so that children born here will tether their parents, LET THEM PAY TAX. Tax 'em to death, just like they do to me. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty equitable to both sides. What immigrant would stay an illegal if granted instant citizenship? And what American would balk at an immigrant forking over his fair share?

I think if this problem was viewed simply as an economic one, it would go away a lot faster. I don't shop at Wal*Mart (Except for ammo...they are the last big box to sell it, and I respect that). Every dollar you spend is a vote...and I am not voting for illegal immigrants. (Who do you think staffs the companies who clean up Wal*Marts? They know about it, believe you me.)

My problem is this...we want to fight 'the war on terror'. Fine. Why is our back door open?
 
At what rate of influx does immigration become invasion? This I think is one of the key roles of “legal” immigration. It controls the rate of immigration. It allows our society to assimilate the immigrants. If the flow of immigrants is too great the immigrants are not assimilated but rather they supplant our society. This is what is happening now.

The simple truth is that this battle is already lost because Washington is too worried about keeping their job. They are either clueless about how these thing are shaping the future or they have already given over the country in exchange for the hope of retaining some form of power in whatever this country becomes.

Really bad things are on the horizon you should start preparing now while you still can.
 
Illegal... Do people in this country comprehend English?
America... Politicians ignore the laws, thinking they are above them. Corporations ignoring laws, having the favor of politicians. Citizens that have less rights than citizens that are illegal. Bank of America giving credit cards to those illegals, who have no social security cards. On and on.

These illegals are claimed to be doing what Americans will not do. I have seen much of their work first hand. They are building houses with little or no knowledge of proper building techniques. They have virtually no concept of what a building code is. The quality of these houses is woefully lacking. I hope Americans like paying 250k+ for a house that is half the quality that it should be. A higher labor cost will only cause the General Contractor to have less of a profit margin. The selling price for the house will be about the same. The market will not support an overpriced product. You must have a competitive prices to compete.

There are going to be many people that are PO'ed, when their houses are falling apart long before their mortgage is near being paid off. The blame will lie upon the greedy General contractor, and any sub-contractors they employ.

You get what you pay for. Between politicians and corporations, having no concept of honest pay for honest work, we are being sold short as a whole.
 
At what rate of influx does immigration become invasion? This I think is one of the key roles of “legal” immigration. It controls the rate of immigration. It allows our society to assimilate the immigrants. If the flow of immigrants is too great the immigrants are not assimilated but rather they supplant our society. This is what is happening now.

The simple truth is that this battle is already lost because Washington is too worried about keeping their job. They are either clueless about how these thing are shaping the future or they have already given over the country in exchange for the hope of retaining some form of power in whatever this country becomes.
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EXACTLY! Just look back in history to see what kind of violence, hatred, racism and urban decay occurred when a vast number of immigrants came into the country, even legally. (Home born population was so much smaller then it is now that we were easily overwhelmed by first gen immigrants where they concentrated.)

Slugthrower, here in LA you can get a phone booth for 250k, but not a house. The working class doesn't even have the luxury to worry about build quality because the average home is 300-500k (over 1 mil for a good neighborhood) for a multi-room house in a non crack den. So many new people coming into Los Angeles (and thanks to welfare many of them can afford payments on a 30 year mortgage apparently) that house prices have skyrocketed in the last 15-25 years.
 
For all we know this could be an invasion. Some diplomat in washington being paid off by or has sided with the mexican government to let go of southern territory. Solution would be border patrol shoot on sight anyone coming in from south of the border using the whole terrorist excuse. Although it seems cruel the illegals who are still going to enter are just going to make it worse for me after I get out of college (baby boomers retire + massive illegal immigrant population = higher taxes) At this rate everyone will want to be an undertaker at the sheer volume of bodies that will show up in a couple decades

OT: Why is housing so expensive in California? Just because you're close to the beach? It's 8 hours from the border of idaho to oregon coast yet housing is very affordable. Temperature in lewiston isn't much different than california either, just the potlatch plant smell that sometimes seems to pervade everything in the valley. But once you get up high enough the wind carries it off, yet again housing is still fairly cheap compared to cali.
 
It’s expensive because their government regulates and taxes them to death and they just keep re-electing them. Oh well you can’t protect people from themselves
 
Although it seems cruel the illegals who are still going to enter are just going to make it worse for me after I get out of college (baby boomers retire + massive illegal immigrant population = higher taxes)
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True. Of course (let_them_come_legally + tax_them_like_everybody_else = lower_taxes), but nobody seems to consider that. We keep complaining that there aren't enough young workers to pay the baby-boomers' SS checks...the answer could lie just to the south of us.

At this rate everyone will want to be an undertaker at the sheer volume of bodies that will show up in a couple decades
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I'd not be surprised to find out this kind of rhetoric was used with every immigrant wave. Did that sheer volume of bodies ever show up?

EDIT: While I'm at it...

There are two questions that generally come to mind for me whenever this debate comes up, and I've yet to see a particularly satisfying answer for either of them.

A) What exactly is this "American culture" they're failing to assimilate to? Bald eagles, Toby Keith, and NASCAR? American Idol and rap music? Apple pie? There is no American culture, really...that's part of the point of America, or at least it used to be. We were a nation of immigrants from around the globe, and you were free to dress how you want, decorate your house how you want, worship what you wanted to, and generally free to keep whatever culture you wanted provided you weren't infringing on somebody else's basic rights. You could even *gasp* speak whatever language you wanted to. Obviously some cultures had/have more influence on the country as a whole (the reason most of us speak English as a primary language, and almost all of us speak it as at least a secondary language), but in general there was no specific culture you had to adopt to be considered an "American."

As far as learning English goes (which seems to be the "lack of assimilation" that bothers most of us), that takes time. Sometimes it takes a generation. Yeah, it's easy for a 30-something white guy to spout off that "if I wanted to move to Japan I'd learn Japanese, dang it!" Then again, it's widely accepted that the older you are, the harder it is to learn a second language...so I guess that 30-something guy should consider himself lucky that, at the age of 30, he has no real need or incentive to move to Japan. Because it's possible at this point that he'd never learn their language to a standard that they'd find acceptable, or "assimilated." Especially if he was simultaneously working two jobs busing tables trying to pay for a dingy apartment. A large portion of immigrants back in the day never bothered to learn English, either...and most of those that did never learned much. I'm pretty sure my ancestors on the side that came from a non-English-speaking country (Russia) didn't. So is there some reason we hold modern immigrants to a higher standard? Why we want them to learn English right now, rather than wait for their kids to learn it like we did with previous waves from non-English-speaking countries?

Okay, so (A) was really two questions.

B) What is so heinous about Mexican culture that seeing our society influenced by it is an objectively bad thing? Yes, there are aspects of their culture I don't care for...then again, some of those same aspects (and many that are just as bad) are shared by black culture, southern white culture, rural white culture, urban white culture, chinese culture, arab culture...well, pretty much any culture that isn't mine...and the ones that are. Heck, I can't think of any reason the Spanish language is objectively worse than English, except that I don't particularly care for having to worry about the gender of inanimate objects...that, and the fact that I can't speak it worth a darn, which I think is the real issue for most people (and a fair one, I suppose).

Is it just that their culture is different from ours/yours? I suspect it's the number of them that's the real issue...you've basically got a bunch of white people that are in very real danger of becoming not just the minority (as in, no longer a solid majority) but rather a minority (as in, there is another race with more people). And I think it scares the crap out of them.


Oh, and I don't care to hear any responses regarding "they're breaking the law," for two reasons. One, I'm betting the number of posters here who have never broken a law can be counted on one hand. If it's not actually zero. Two (and more importantly), what I'm discussing is the idea of changing the law, so using the current law as an argument isn't going to do a lot of good. Basically I think we should raise the number of Mexicans allowed to come up and work legally dramatically. And before anybody responds with the classic "I'm all for raising the quotas, but we need to secure our border too," save it. It's almost always lip service at best...it basically amounts to "yeah, we'll do that quota raising thing....sure....but for right now let's work on building a wall." Yeah, right. If you were honestly open to the idea of raising quotas in addition to border security, you'd raise the quotas first. You know why? Because by reducing the incentive to cross the border illegally, you'd actually make securing the border easier by doing so. It's the logical first step, assuming you're actually open to the idea.
 
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I agree that english is hard to learn, but even a rudimentary knowledge of another language is mandatory if you expect to work in a different country that speaks a different language generally. Although the real reason some people come over without learning english is because they are so desparate. Living conditions in slums in mexico are trerrible. Cholera, kissing bugs, malaria, and all sorts of other nasty diseases which are all but erradicated here in the US are abundant in the outlying areas.

However I still stand by my belief that they need to enter legally and get citizenship status before they can recieve complete gubment aid. I have no problem with a citizen that cannot speak english who came from mexico as long as he or she is following the rules the rest of us do.
 
WeedWacker said:
I agree that english is hard to learn, but even a rudimentary knowledge of another language is mandatory if you expect to work in a different country that speaks a different language generally.
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Maybe, maybe not. If you peers all speak at least rudimentary Spanish, and a company is willing to hire you knowing you don't speak English, and you can get your job done without knowing how to, why should you have to?

The only real argument here is that if English isn't spoken in the home, it's tougher for their kids to learn it (which can compromise that whole "generation" assimilation thing). Well, that's on schools...it's not like somebody is likely to learn English well enough at the age of 25 or 30 to actually teach it to their kids anyway. And again, this is nothing new. Kids learning English at school while speaking Japanese, German, Chinese, Russian, Polish, or whatever else at home has been going on for as long as we've had immigrants.

Although the real reason some people come over without learning english is because they are so desparate. Living conditions in slums in mexico are trerrible. Cholera, kissing bugs, malaria, and all sorts of other nasty diseases which are all but erradicated here in the US are abundant in the outlying areas.
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Without a doubt. Having spent quite a bit of time down by the border, I know exactly how bad the slums in Mexico are (at least in the abstract). As far as the diseases you're talking about, are you worried that they'll bring them here? Because that would be part of the point of increased legal immigration...you could screen for such things during the process and either treat them (if possible) or reject the immigrant (if not). That certainly isn't happening in the coyote's van. Sure, you'd then get some people trying to cross illegally because of this...but like I said, if you decrease the incentive for illegal crossing it just makes it easier to catch the ones who try anyway because there will be less of them.

Makes it harder for Arabs to hide in the flow of illegal Mexicans, too...for those of you concerned about such things.
 
Juan Carlos.......RIGHT ON!

WildbestpostsinthethreadAlaska

PS...My wife is Japanese...we have been married for 5 years...my Japanese is still rudimentary although I can curse at myself real good :D
 
the whole deal with terrorists is that the border is so open. It is easy for them to get into Mexico then laughable at the ease at which they can cross the southern border without being detected. And about the diseases thing: Not worried about cholera, malaria, or kissing bugs, but hepatitis, hauntavirus, and a couple others not to mention lice, fleas, ringworm and other annoying insects and fungus that they carry on their bodies and in anything they bring with them (which usually isn't much but blankets work well)
 
WeedWacker said:
the whole deal with terrorists is that the border is so open. It is easy for them to get into Mexico then laughable at the ease at which they can cross the southern border without being detected. And about the diseases thing: Not worried about cholera, malaria, or kissing bugs, but hepatitis, hauntavirus, and a couple others not to mention lice, fleas, ringworm and other annoying insects and fungus that they carry on their bodies and in anything they bring with them (which usually isn't much but blankets work well)
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Um...I think I already covered that. Medical exams, treatment, process, all of which are aided by increased legal immigration. As for people being able to physically cross because it's so "open"...good luck changing that. The border is 1800+ miles, unless I'm mistaken...I don't know of any such borders that long that have ever been effectively "sealed." At least not when there is a strong incentive for people on one side to cross to the other. You can stop armies from crossing a border that long, but individuals is a bit tougher. What you can do is increase the incentive for people to cross legally, thus decreasing illegal traffic across it and making those dirty terrorists stand out more. Aside from that you have to rely on intelligence and law enforcement to keep you safe if they do make it across. And you're never going to stop every terrorist anyway, but that's a discussion for another thread.


While I'm typing, there's something else I forgot to mention that has always amused me. I think a lot of people fail to realize (or at least fully internalize) that California (as well as much of the west and southwest) was predominantly Spanish-speaking long before it was English speaking. It wasn't annexed by the US until somewhere around 1840 or 1850. Large portions of the southwest have been bilingual for as long as the US has been around. Places like New Mexico, Arizona, and southern California have had large Spanish-speaking communities (based on my grandfather's stories from being stationed at El Toro, and my great-aunt's stories from growing up in Arizona and New Mexico, at least) going back for decades. Going all the way back to the time that they were Spanish territories, I'd wager. Yet people are shocked (shocked I say!) to find that when they live in places with names such as San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, Nogales, Las Vegas, Las Cruces, Albuquerque, Las Vegas, or plenty more that I could throw out and they run into people speaking Spanish of all things. Whodathunkit?!
 
I wouldn't be surprised they speak spanish. What is actually surprising is that some make no effort to learn english. In Wisconsin there are many Mong immigrants, but they learned english and assimilated into the community. The kids I went to elementary with would speak mong with eachother and english with us white kids. Their parents were bilingual as well even though they came straight from Tailand.

As for the border, punji sticks and giant spiders would fix it ;) :D
 
I wouldn't be surprised they speak spanish. What is actually surprising is that some make no effort to learn english. In Wisconsin there are many Mong immigrants, but they learned english and assimilated into the community. The kids I went to elementary with would speak mong with eachother and english with us white kids. Their parents were bilingual as well even though they came straight from Tailand.
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The Mong immigrants probably had to. There might be "many" Mong immigrants, but wikipedia tells me that they're still less than 3% or so of the population in any of Wisconsin's major cities. An immigrant moving from Thailand to Wisconsin is obviously going to have more pressure put on them to learn English than an immigrant moving from Mexico to California or New Mexico. Wisconsin was never a Mong-speaking territory. It doesn't have a long history of large bilingual English/Mong communities, or even large solely Mong speaking communities. The local cities don't all have Mong names.

You know what? I'd still not give a crap if a Mong immigrant didn't bother to learn English.

The US has no official language. The southwestern US has been at least somewhat bilingual for as long as there has been a US, and was Spanish-speaking before that. I see no real reason somebody should have to learn English to move there. Yeah, it'd be a bonus, but not really required. And almost all their kids will eventually learn it anyways. Personally I'd say working and paying their taxes should be enough...most of them are at least as likely as actual citizens to do the former, and would be more than happy to do the latter if it meant not having to look over their shoulder for the INS.
 
Actually they have to go through canada first so there would be mor pressure towards french depending on where they go. besides the point is that they took time to learn english, evan simple english just to be able to ask where the bathroom is or ask for food. There are asians who do not speak english yet are you surprised when there is an entire china district in snafransisco and other large cities? Mandarin Chinese is more widely spoken than english or spanish. Shouldn't we learn that instead of spanish and print all our signs on the west coast in mandarin with english subtitles?
 
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