Illegal Aliens rallying across US today
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CanoeCrasher
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Wow
I would like to say, this is an interesting conversation to read. I'm a lurker, but you guys seem to have all the bases covered.
A couple of thoughts from an outsider:
Thank you for not making this about race. It's a topic not allowed in L&P, and your ignoring it in such racially charged topic makes me think maybe this whole "Internet" thing isn't all bad.
Second, do any of you see some odd parallels in this to the AR15vsAK47 and 9mm vs 45ACP debates? Some very polarized sides, with tag lines and everything?
"Send me your huddled masses" vs "There isn't enough America" , etc?
Lastly, I had a thought about some of the earlier posts, about the INS rounding up all the protesters on to busses and shipping them back "where they belong." First, Panama and Venezuela are pretty far away, and the bus may not make it to some of the islands. Moving that many non-Mexicans to their homes would not be cheap.
Second, what if there is a US citizen in that crowd, using his First Ammendment rights to protest what he considers unjust immigration laws? Even using his first ammendment right to hold a sign that says "I am an illegal alien." Should the government have the right to demand to see proof of citizenship, or he risks being deported?
Just a couple of tangential thoughts. Keep up the good work and clean debate.
CC
I would like to say, this is an interesting conversation to read. I'm a lurker, but you guys seem to have all the bases covered.
A couple of thoughts from an outsider:
Thank you for not making this about race. It's a topic not allowed in L&P, and your ignoring it in such racially charged topic makes me think maybe this whole "Internet" thing isn't all bad.
Second, do any of you see some odd parallels in this to the AR15vsAK47 and 9mm vs 45ACP debates? Some very polarized sides, with tag lines and everything?
"Send me your huddled masses" vs "There isn't enough America" , etc?
Lastly, I had a thought about some of the earlier posts, about the INS rounding up all the protesters on to busses and shipping them back "where they belong." First, Panama and Venezuela are pretty far away, and the bus may not make it to some of the islands. Moving that many non-Mexicans to their homes would not be cheap.
Second, what if there is a US citizen in that crowd, using his First Ammendment rights to protest what he considers unjust immigration laws? Even using his first ammendment right to hold a sign that says "I am an illegal alien." Should the government have the right to demand to see proof of citizenship, or he risks being deported?
Just a couple of tangential thoughts. Keep up the good work and clean debate.
CC
No, but if he said it it must mean that it isn't happening? That's a lame attempt at an answer.
How many illegal aliens are living in your house?
Fine, get the immigrations laws changed but I really don't feel like working hard so part of my tax dollars can support people who come here to leech off of our system.
We need to start calling them illegal GIMMEgrants because thats what they really are after, gimme,gimme,gimme.
gimme free healthcare,gimme free educations,gimme citizenship(never mind that we SNUCK into your country).
It boggles my mind that we let people who are here ILLEGALLY make demands and protest in our streets, and the saddest part is that they will get what they are demanding because our "leaders" are spineless cowards.
gimme free healthcare,gimme free educations,gimme citizenship(never mind that we SNUCK into your country).
It boggles my mind that we let people who are here ILLEGALLY make demands and protest in our streets, and the saddest part is that they will get what they are demanding because our "leaders" are spineless cowards.
One big problem I have is that the Hispanic community goes berserk about the US building a wall on the border. I don't see how this could work any other way. I'm for reasonable immigration reform but it can't work without increased border security. In other words amnesty + no border security = open borders. If you aren't going to punish those that are already here yet don't beef up security you will keep contributing to the problem. If illegals truly want amnesty or a more fair (to them) immigration reform, they also can't cry about the US building a better barrier on the border.
My wife is from Mexico and we went through the process to make sure that she never violated her visa and now she has legal resident status. I happen to watch a lot of spanish TV and listen to spanish radio. What you will get from these sources is how terrible the US is for building the wall on the border and how cruel the immigration raids are. Many times you will also hear activists talking about La Reconquista or Aztlan movements in which they plan to take back the "stolen" lands through rioting and violence.
There is a big problem with this though. The lands were never stolen. They were purchased in 2 transactions. The treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo provided much of the land and the Gadsden Purchase provided some land in Southern Arizona and New Mexico for building a railroad. General Santa Ana's incompetence resulted in the Mexican American war that resulted in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. In this treaty the US not only purchased the land, they also freed Mexican citizens from any debt owed to the US. Sounds fair to me.
The average Mexican citizen still believes to this day that the US stole their land. Some chicanos and Mexicans in Denver even try to claim that Denver, CO was once part of Mexico and that they shouldn't have to go back to their countries because they are in their homeland. Denver was never ever once part of Spain or Mexico. The Spanish never claimed any land in Colorado north of the Arkansas river. We are not dealing with very reasonable or educated people here.
My wife is from Mexico and we went through the process to make sure that she never violated her visa and now she has legal resident status. I happen to watch a lot of spanish TV and listen to spanish radio. What you will get from these sources is how terrible the US is for building the wall on the border and how cruel the immigration raids are. Many times you will also hear activists talking about La Reconquista or Aztlan movements in which they plan to take back the "stolen" lands through rioting and violence.
There is a big problem with this though. The lands were never stolen. They were purchased in 2 transactions. The treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo provided much of the land and the Gadsden Purchase provided some land in Southern Arizona and New Mexico for building a railroad. General Santa Ana's incompetence resulted in the Mexican American war that resulted in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. In this treaty the US not only purchased the land, they also freed Mexican citizens from any debt owed to the US. Sounds fair to me.
The average Mexican citizen still believes to this day that the US stole their land. Some chicanos and Mexicans in Denver even try to claim that Denver, CO was once part of Mexico and that they shouldn't have to go back to their countries because they are in their homeland. Denver was never ever once part of Spain or Mexico. The Spanish never claimed any land in Colorado north of the Arkansas river. We are not dealing with very reasonable or educated people here.
America now takes in more people then all other countries combined at this
rate we will be a rich/poor society in 50 years, no middle-class, no freedom.
My opinion.
For all the open border types try this experiment place a sign in your yard
(I will feed and board all illegal immigrants) see how that works out. America
is your home it does have limits as all things do. Protect it or lose it, your
choice.
rate we will be a rich/poor society in 50 years, no middle-class, no freedom.
My opinion.
For all the open border types try this experiment place a sign in your yard
(I will feed and board all illegal immigrants) see how that works out. America
is your home it does have limits as all things do. Protect it or lose it, your
choice.
Scott Conklin
New member
MDman said:
Please explain this feeling in detail, from data on how US resources are inexhaustible to how small business and corporate America are supposed to create enough jobs AND deal with these people in a legal fashion.
After that we'll go into aspects of inflation, taxation, handouts and even food supply. Thank you in advance.
Scott Conklin
New member
CanoeCrasher said:
Get them out of OUR borders. They figured out how to get here, they can figure out how to get home. Do you help a home-invader find his way back home when you are tossing him out the door?
They can ask to see your ID on a streetcorner for no probable cause at all. What would be any possible argument with asking for ID here? And if the Citizen is too dumb to have brought it with him? Or too stubborn to produce it? Well, maybe his family will bail him out before the busses take him to his new country of residence.
The true problem here as I see it is not illegal immigration. It is government handouts. Illegals have the advantage of free healthcare, free education, tax avoidance, and other handouts.
Get rid of the income tax, and replace it with the fair tax. Get rid of welfare, medicare, food stamps, free education and all of the other nanny state stuff, and the playing field will be level. Legal citizens will then be playing on a level field with illegals, and most of the problems concerning them will be much easier to deal with.
Get rid of the income tax, and replace it with the fair tax. Get rid of welfare, medicare, food stamps, free education and all of the other nanny state stuff, and the playing field will be level. Legal citizens will then be playing on a level field with illegals, and most of the problems concerning them will be much easier to deal with.
A big problem is the 14th Amendment. When written it was to state that all people born in the USA are by default citizens. This solved the "are freed slaves citizens" issue. The problem is the Amendment was written without any conception that it could be used by hordes of people enterring the nation illegally who place a drain on its resources in order to gain some permanence. They cross the border, drop a couple kids, and then say since the children are citizens they can't leave.
This is a huge hole in our Constitution and it needs to be fixed BUT both the Dems and Reps ahve sold out the nation on this.
This is a huge hole in our Constitution and it needs to be fixed BUT both the Dems and Reps ahve sold out the nation on this.
No kidding. Look at how the LA protests ended. The riot police had to be called in after protesters refused to move away from the sidewalk as police were ordering. This should be an embarassment to these people as even Spanish TV news reporters were injured in this riot. This incident certainly doesn't help their cause.
Now this is what I call an un-biased news station...not.:barf:
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55481
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55481
Actually, in Texas anyway, you can be hauled off for failure to indentify I believe
I don't agree with this law, but apparently it is on the books.
I've been told this by two different retired LEO in Texas that you are required to have either a DL or state issued ID card on you at all times. If not you can be arrested for failure to identify.
I don't agree with this law, but apparently it is on the books.
I've been told this by two different retired LEO in Texas that you are required to have either a DL or state issued ID card on you at all times. If not you can be arrested for failure to identify.
I see absolutely no parallel. 9mmVS 45ACP/AR15VSAK47 are performance debates about ballistics. Nothing to do with illegals breaking the law.
Also, we sometimes forget to jump on the American employers that knowingly hire these illegals. Now some states are requiring employers to use the Basic Pilot Program. This allows any employer to access federal data base that tells them in minutes if they are using bogus SS# and such. The illegal lobbies hate the Basic Pilot Program. This means employers can no long pretend they don't know they are hiring illegals.
Before your worry about privacy let me tell you a little secret. When a local cop anywhere in the USA stops you or even just wants to call in your car license number. In less than a minute he has about 27 pieces of information on you from the NCIC (National Crime Computer). This includes any crime records, address, SS#, Birthplace, etc. In about all of the police forces this information is given for each and every stop a cop makes. This is a safety issue so if something happens they have a record. When the cop walks up to your car he has already called in to get this information.
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