Edlegault don't jump on the poor training/shooting bandwagon unless you've been there and done that. It's really hard to explain but real life is so much different then a target range. Try doing a six minute mile, 100 pushups - situps, and 500 jumping jacks and then shoot at a threat while your life is in danger and the threat doesn't stand still or have a central firing point to aim at. There was a trainer from Ohio or somewhere who beat himself up over how much training his guys do (trigger time & scenarios with sims,) yet OIS hit ratios were no better then the untrained bad guys hit ratio. Most LEOs do need more training, better ranges, and more trng $ but it's more then that. Take a Marine rifleman in combat right now. What is his hit ratio compared to rounds fired.
Future of the .40 cal in Law Enforcement
- Thread starter microman
- Start date
secret_agent_man
Moderator
Ask a few older ones would they prefer a return to 357 MAG.
Quote:
"Military performance and Law enforcement performance are two different things since law enforcement can use hollow point ammunition and the military can't.I'm a huge fan of the .40, but for military applications where you have to use non expanding full metal jacket ammunition, a bigger hole like the .45 is probably better."
I think that's probably true (the bigger hole part), but the extra capacity--in gun and on soldier's belt--would win out in a bureaucrati-logistics fight between the two. The .45 may gain favor with some special op's units for its acknowledged blunderbus knock down prowess, and due to the fact most such units can have anything they want...and further are not burdened by such weighty large scale bureaucracy/logistics/support or individual/unit capacity concerns (ie, such as "regular" possibility being stranded at a remote outpost in hostile territory/undersiege with no inherent/planned immediate extraction). I very much think that, notwithstanding Mr. Gates' likely very accurate observation of "not soon" (in the present budgetary environment), any eventual serious re-think will probably place something in the field with a .40 diameter, and that likely will be the proven S&W. Same (basic) frame as the 9, greater cap than the .45, what's not to like--from a military--or more to the OP's query--LEO point of view?...yes, assuming some level of training. I think COSteve's was one of the best sum-ups. 40's here to stay.
"Military performance and Law enforcement performance are two different things since law enforcement can use hollow point ammunition and the military can't.I'm a huge fan of the .40, but for military applications where you have to use non expanding full metal jacket ammunition, a bigger hole like the .45 is probably better."
I think that's probably true (the bigger hole part), but the extra capacity--in gun and on soldier's belt--would win out in a bureaucrati-logistics fight between the two. The .45 may gain favor with some special op's units for its acknowledged blunderbus knock down prowess, and due to the fact most such units can have anything they want...and further are not burdened by such weighty large scale bureaucracy/logistics/support or individual/unit capacity concerns (ie, such as "regular" possibility being stranded at a remote outpost in hostile territory/undersiege with no inherent/planned immediate extraction). I very much think that, notwithstanding Mr. Gates' likely very accurate observation of "not soon" (in the present budgetary environment), any eventual serious re-think will probably place something in the field with a .40 diameter, and that likely will be the proven S&W. Same (basic) frame as the 9, greater cap than the .45, what's not to like--from a military--or more to the OP's query--LEO point of view?...yes, assuming some level of training. I think COSteve's was one of the best sum-ups. 40's here to stay.
A re-post
The .40 v .45 FMJ issue…
I have opined in print that there isn’t enough difference between these rounds, to matter. Another thing that brought me around to the .40 was a couple of informal bullet tests I did a couple of years later- using bargain ammo:
06/09/05-
Keep in mind that this is not a scientific test, and it does not relate performance on water jugs to performance on humans. What it does do is relate the performance of typical .40 FMJ to .45 FMJ ammo and guns, in the same medium. I shot what I had on hand. In .45 ACP, that was Wolf 230 hardball. You can look the ballistics up if you want, but it is consistent with other round of that caliber and type; 850 fps or so. In .40, I used Remington UMC 180 FMJ, which is a flat-point bullet at a listed 985 fps.
Test guns were a 5" Springfield MilSpec and a 4" Springfield XD-40. The unfired rounds and recovered bullets appear below:
I find it interesting that the .40 actually riveted a bit, and the jug shot with the .40 jumped a bit, and showed some swelling on the bottom (impact) end. I managed to precisely center that jug, so the bullet shattered the cap on the way out. The jug shot with the .45 ball barely moved. The jug hit with the .40 also ruptured, and the jug shot with the .45 did not. Take this for what it is worth.
Both bullets penetrated to within 1/4 inch of the same depth, with the edge going to the .45 here. Neither of them penetrated the catalog, which was dry and about 1.5 inches thick.
What did we prove here? Does the .40 kick the old .45's hiney?
No, it does not; but it offers a similar, if not better in some cases, performance to the old Colt round, in a smaller package. I would not be at all bashful about carrying .40 FMJ flat-point in a military or defensive handgun.
The .40 v .45 FMJ issue…
I have opined in print that there isn’t enough difference between these rounds, to matter. Another thing that brought me around to the .40 was a couple of informal bullet tests I did a couple of years later- using bargain ammo:
06/09/05-
Keep in mind that this is not a scientific test, and it does not relate performance on water jugs to performance on humans. What it does do is relate the performance of typical .40 FMJ to .45 FMJ ammo and guns, in the same medium. I shot what I had on hand. In .45 ACP, that was Wolf 230 hardball. You can look the ballistics up if you want, but it is consistent with other round of that caliber and type; 850 fps or so. In .40, I used Remington UMC 180 FMJ, which is a flat-point bullet at a listed 985 fps.
Test guns were a 5" Springfield MilSpec and a 4" Springfield XD-40. The unfired rounds and recovered bullets appear below:
I find it interesting that the .40 actually riveted a bit, and the jug shot with the .40 jumped a bit, and showed some swelling on the bottom (impact) end. I managed to precisely center that jug, so the bullet shattered the cap on the way out. The jug shot with the .45 ball barely moved. The jug hit with the .40 also ruptured, and the jug shot with the .45 did not. Take this for what it is worth.
Both bullets penetrated to within 1/4 inch of the same depth, with the edge going to the .45 here. Neither of them penetrated the catalog, which was dry and about 1.5 inches thick.
What did we prove here? Does the .40 kick the old .45's hiney?
No, it does not; but it offers a similar, if not better in some cases, performance to the old Colt round, in a smaller package. I would not be at all bashful about carrying .40 FMJ flat-point in a military or defensive handgun.
Off subject; NorEaster's post; NRA US military training article...
This goes a tad off the .40S&W-LE topic but a recent NRA member magazine had a detailed item about the big problems many US Army & reserve units are having with training standards, re-quals, ammunition, etc.
The dismal marksmanship & lack of $$$/DoD support shows the flaws in our combat forces.
Today's combat troops(not WW2, Korea, Desert Storm, etc) need to really step up or face more problems/issues.
Talking & hot air are not going to keep these brave young men & women of the USAF, US Army, US Coast Guard, USMC, reserves, etc alive in full scale gun battles.
This goes a tad off the .40S&W-LE topic but a recent NRA member magazine had a detailed item about the big problems many US Army & reserve units are having with training standards, re-quals, ammunition, etc.
The dismal marksmanship & lack of $$$/DoD support shows the flaws in our combat forces.
Today's combat troops(not WW2, Korea, Desert Storm, etc) need to really step up or face more problems/issues.
Talking & hot air are not going to keep these brave young men & women of the USAF, US Army, US Coast Guard, USMC, reserves, etc alive in full scale gun battles.
gearhounds
New member
I carried a .357 for a couple of years before my agency switched to auto's. I often say that if we were forced to change back, I could do it, but I would not be happy giving up my P220. Maybe I'm not quite old enough?
Horseless Trooper
New member
45 has become dominant in my area. The state carries the 45GAP, my county and the surrounding counties carry the Glock in 45ACP and the Syracuse PD went with the S&W M&P 45 a couple of years ago. I only know of one village in the area which stuck with the 9mm but a number of them carry the 40. One of the depts. I work for carries the Glock 21SF. It fits my hand about as well as a 2x4 but is a slight improvement over 21. My other dept. issues the Glock 23 40S&W but the Chief lets me carry a revolver cuz I'm old and crotchety and technology resistant.
.40 S(hort) & W(eak)
My agency began to issue .40 cal handguns in the 90s. I retired in the late 90s and have only sporadically owned .40s since then. The round was developed initially to take the advantage from the 10mm and leave the irascibility and control problems of the 10mm out of the equation. As long as I can get .44spl, .45acp, .357Sig and a couple of others I won't use a .40 cal again. Don't have anything against the .40. It is a good round. Sort of like Tom Selleck in "Quigley Down Under"...A paraphrase..."Never said I didn't know HOW to use the .40S&W, Said I didn't have any use for it.". Regards, Al
My agency began to issue .40 cal handguns in the 90s. I retired in the late 90s and have only sporadically owned .40s since then. The round was developed initially to take the advantage from the 10mm and leave the irascibility and control problems of the 10mm out of the equation. As long as I can get .44spl, .45acp, .357Sig and a couple of others I won't use a .40 cal again. Don't have anything against the .40. It is a good round. Sort of like Tom Selleck in "Quigley Down Under"...A paraphrase..."Never said I didn't know HOW to use the .40S&W, Said I didn't have any use for it.". Regards, Al
armsmaster270
New member
.40 S&W will be with us a long time. Even the U.S Coast Guard Dumped the 9mm for the .40.
Right...
I certainly agree with that. I sometimes carry a 9mm when I want to but I hated to carry it the few times I HAD to. I don't like the steam of the 10mm and the .40 takes the slack very well. If somebody found a long lost John Moses Browning design for a 1911 style in .44 S&W Special I'd think I'd done died and gone to heaven. Regards, Al
I certainly agree with that. I sometimes carry a 9mm when I want to but I hated to carry it the few times I HAD to. I don't like the steam of the 10mm and the .40 takes the slack very well. If somebody found a long lost John Moses Browning design for a 1911 style in .44 S&W Special I'd think I'd done died and gone to heaven. Regards, Al
jeepman4804
New member
sorry couldn't resist.They also issue AR15's chambered in .223, and 12 gauge shotguns shooting "reduced recoil" 00 buckshot (8 pellets). Oh, and my cousin also trained with an MP-5 at the accademy.
But no, AFAIK they only issue .40 S&W in handguns.
So, how much data have you collected from your shootouts with various cartridges? Perhaps you could share that with us?
Daryl
.40S&W vs the 10mm ....
In the late 1990s, I worked for the US Dept of Veterans Affairs in west PA(Pittsburgh area).
One of my 083/police officer co-workers, a USMC MP veteran & part time LE officer in a small town used to call my .40 96D Beretta "short & weak". Lol.
On his small town beat, he'd pack a Glock 20 10mm. He could shoot 300/300 on his PD quals so the 10mm worked for him.
I later learned in the early 2000s the VA police officer left federal service entirely & took a LT job opening with the small police force.
I smile sometimes and think of that .40S&W joke and think he still uses the Glock 20 on duty.
In the late 1990s, I worked for the US Dept of Veterans Affairs in west PA(Pittsburgh area).
One of my 083/police officer co-workers, a USMC MP veteran & part time LE officer in a small town used to call my .40 96D Beretta "short & weak". Lol.
On his small town beat, he'd pack a Glock 20 10mm. He could shoot 300/300 on his PD quals so the 10mm worked for him.
I later learned in the early 2000s the VA police officer left federal service entirely & took a LT job opening with the small police force.
I smile sometimes and think of that .40S&W joke and think he still uses the Glock 20 on duty.
Right after the .40 came out their was a revolution in bullet design. Anything form 9mm on up with good JHP's is as good as any other side arm. Since the .40 is the caliber de jour with law enforcement here anyways I don' t think it will change anytime soon. The new trend seems to be leaning towards less lethal (whatever that means) weapons like tasers, beanbags and such.
shooter970
New member
I have been a long time 40 fan but the 45 gap will beat it hands down. I can't find a single problem with it, I have a custom 40 I have won a few matches with and my stock gap will equal it in accuracy, and the recoil is about the same and it puts the steel target down with a corner hit and my 40 will not. Just my 2 cents