Future of the .40 cal in Law Enforcement

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Start up costs money? Yup. Except the US has never ended its' use of .45acp. .45acp guns do not cost more to make or service. .45acp ammunition is less costly than 9mm. The US should NEVER factor in a supposed ability to 'supply' allies or enemies with ammunition or other logistics. It is long past the point where our 'allies' need to be told to sink or swim on their own merits and on their own buck.
As for Beretta handguns, I have always liked them. My favorite issue handgun was a 96D Centurion. But we should have never shifted to them in place of a 1911A1. Have any of the referred to 'net commandos ever seen the lightning fast ease of stripping the upper from a Beretta by an opponent when held by a good guy? I have. Some aftermarket group went to the extremely uncalled for trouble of selling a latch for the takedown latch to keep that from happening.
9mm is a pretty good round. I like and carry it. But of the two I will always favor the .45acp. Regards, Al
 
The US Coast Guard has two issued sidearms, Beretta 92 9mm and Sig P229 DAK 40 S&W. They use the Sig unless they are "in theater" then they have to use the Beretta which includes swapping out their holsters and other gear. The US Air Force attempted to go to the 45acp a few years ago and Congress shot them down.

I don't think the Beretta's are junk. Very good firearm the M9. But they are not being kept up and US Army holds the patten and went with sub contractors for parts which are not up to Beretta standards. The lowest bidder is Murphy's law waiting!
 
The 40 is here to stay.

Both in civilian use as well as law enforcement agencies.

Bottom line is that it works, and it works well.
 
.40S&W 165gr wt vs the 180gr wt in bonded JHPs...

I'd get a 165gr JHP(bonded type) over the 180gr JHP in .40S&W any day of the week if I were a armed security or sworn LE officer.
I've owned/shot 2 Beretta 96D .40 pistols & would stock
them with Winchester or Golden Saber 165gr JHPs for protection/concealed carry. I sometimes used 135gr Corbon rounds but not often.
To me, the 165gr JHP was an ideal mid-range weight for the .40 caliber.
180gr LE rounds were okay but I prefer the ballistics of the 165gr .40S&W.

CF
ps; I still say a .41AE or .40Super type pistol round would be far better for the M9/military sidearm but that is years & years away.
 
.45acp costs less than 9mm?

Where do you shop, aryfrosty?

LGS, $14/box 9mm, $26/box .45acp.

Online suppliers show similar price differentials.

Component wise, more lead in big bore reloads, and more powder, plus large pistol primers, so .45 costs more to reload, too.
 
I would say the danger to the .40 S&W in law enforcement lays not from the .357 Sig or the .45 ACP but with ever tightening budgets and ammunition advancements, but from super-duper wonder nines.
Click to expand...

The department I work for is transitioning to the M&P in 9mm over the next three years. Budget constraints are forcing them to save on ammo. The choices were to cut back on available practice time and ammo or change guns.

They made the choice to change guns to keep up the training and practice time. I think it was the right call. Since they use Federal HST 124gr+p in current 9mms I think they will do just fine.
 
Good luck with your changeover...

I hope you guys are happy with the 9mms. You won't be undergunned, no matter what anyone says bad about the round.
My concern is that we are slowly sliding over into the 'one-world' mindset. Metric system...9mm and 7,62 nato...worldwide armaments treaties. What's next. We were the best but now we are just one more among many.
 
We had the 9mm or .40S&W option. It worked well for a while. Smaller oficers carried a compact Sig with the 9mm in 124gr+p. It was effective.

Bigger and more experienced officer's used the 180gr .40S&W. It was effective as well. I chalk a lot of that up to being able to get your hands on 200 rounds for practice every Monday.

I'm not to worried about the one world size issue. We can always look to the Russians for some wierd sizes if need be. :p
 
My take:

Why the .40S&W?

It has been essentially called for for some time, and for good reason.

1870s - Catridges looking a lot like the .40 S&W and 10mm began to be worked on. The .38/40, as an example, pushed a 180 grain bullet at approx 950 feet per second. Not bad for black powder.

1960s - Folks started looking for what they considered "the ideal" revolver cartridge, a .40 cartridge which could push 200 grain bullets between 900 and 1000 feet per second. Folks like Jordan, Keith, and Skelton, mind you. (They didn't get it, instead getting the more powerful .41 Magnum; a great cartridge relegated mostly to field use having been deemed too powerful by most for every day carry and defensive use.)

1970s - Col. Jeff Cooper, Mr. .45acp, called for "the ideal" semi automatic cartridge, one delivering a .40 caliber 200 grain bullet at 1000 feet per second. The 10mm began to take hold. (He didn't get it, instead getting a more powerful 10mm; a great cartridge... deja vu... deemed too powerful by most for every day carry and defensive use.)

The 10mm began to be loaded in two varieties; the magnum variety which has proven popular with 10mm advocates, and the variety often referred to as the "down loaded" and "light" 10mm. (The weaker cartridges look an awful lot like what the greats had called for, but what did they know?)

1980s - the FBI adopted the 10mm in the form of a 180 grain JHP at approx 950 feet per second. There never was a stronger one or a weaker one. That was it, and the agents apparently liked it. (The whole "they went to the .40 S&W because agents couldn't handle the 10mm is incorrect: the .40 S&W they shoot today is marginally more powerful than the 10mm load that they moved away from.)

Meanwhile, other folks had been experimenting with cartridges capable of duplicating the FBI spec'd 10mm's ideal; a nearly hundred year ideal. And someone asked: can it be done in a more size-efficient package than the 10mm? The answer was yes and in 1989 the a .40 S&W load was introduced pushing a 180 grain bullet just shy of 1000 fps.

The .40S&W currently dominates the US law enforcement market and is very popular in gaming circles.

Why?

LEO wise: Many law enforcement agencies took note of the FBI's declaration that a 10mm 180 grain JHP at approx 950 was "best" for LEO/SD purposes. And some of those folks were gunnies who remembered what the greats had called for all along.... They also took note that the .40 S&W fit into 9mm sized frames, and liked the capacity offered by a round beginning with "4." Good performance, smaller pistols, and increased capacity? Winning combinations.

Gamer wise: 180 grain bullets at 1000 feet per second make major. Making major while affording more capacity? A winning combination.

Non-LEO/SD wise: These folks, many of them at least, pay a lot of attention to the afore mentioned folks; greats, LEOs, and gamers. They began to see more and more pistols chambered for .40 S&W, and that's all that it took.

Now a days, there are a variety of choices, with the 155, 165, and 180 grain varieties being the most popular. Gaming and bipedal fighting wise, you could do worse. The two main federal labs (DOJ's and DHS's) currently spec the 180 at approximately 1000 fps as "ideal."

Note: Not your cup of tea? Fine. But the the .40 S&W doesn't deserve half of the flak people like to send its way.

Best,
Erik
 
If the 45 GAP had been existence back in the day, development of the 40 might not have ever happened. Makes you wonder about it's long term viability now. But then, if 357 SIG had been around back in the day, the 45 ACP may never have come into existence, much less the GAP version.
 
Im more a fan of the 45ACP 1st and the 9mm 2nd. However, I am having a growing respect for the 40S&W, I think the cartridge is here to stay. I think it will only be improved. I am starting to like it more and more I think the 165gr. load is about perfect, Imo.
 
The .40 S&W is gonna be here for a long time. So is the 9mm and the .45. Even the .357 Sig has many a LEO department following (but not as much as the .40.)

They all will survive for a century or more (as the 9x19 and .45 ACP have already.)

Deaf
 
The majority of LE agencies in my area (New Haven, CT area) have already gone over to .40S&W, to include the CT State Police, who carry the Sig P229. Others carry Glocks, M&P's, and other Sig models in .40S&W.

My agency is actually going from 9mm Sig P226R's to .40S&W in the same weapon within the next few months. I think it's a great move, since I've been carrying a .40 Glock 27 as my primary off-duty carry weapon for the last 15 years for all the same reasons listed in previous posts.
 
IMO, the .40 S&W is a long term cartridge unless the 10mm comes back to replace it. With the .45 ACP who needs the .45 GAP? I don't see the .45 GAP being a significant player unless they say civilians cannot have a military cartridge. If that were the case, I think the 45 Super may become the .45 auto cartridge of choice.
 
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