flash mobs

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back to pepper spray...

... as to the mentality of "the mob" if you have an angry mob that are all fired up... that is probably the most dangerous... but if you have a mob of younger "normal" people, that are bored & looking for a thrill, then most are going to run at the sight of a gun...

the example in the convienience store, setting off a canister of something rudely unpleasant would probably have dispersed the croud pretty quickly... fanning a canister of pepper spray would likely have resulted in saving 1/2 of his inventory, while not putting him in an extremely unfreindly court situation, if the mayors 12 year old son happened along for something "cool" to do... just for example

rotton egg smell, skunk smell would likely have sent them all fleeing

not saying I'll quit carrying my gun, just that there will be situations, where it's not the best tool for the job...
 
I agree with Glenn E. Meyer's Post #50.

A problem dealing with mobs is that they can be or do almost anything. They can range from wreaking homicidal violence on any person caught in their range to people streaking in their birthday suit. Quite a range.

We are considering mobs which are violent. Mobs can bring tremendous force to bear in a fluid manner. They can soak up lethal hits to individuals and continue to function. If you are able to neutralize a few individuals that may have no effect on the mob's continued violence. If someone draws attention by proving they are a threat to the mob, it is likely that the mob will turn to deal with the threat.

While mobs are made up of individuals, the individuals largely give in to influences which remove personal responsibility. The numbers which make up a mob afford a way for the individual to hide "self" and be moved by the mob experience, peer pressure in a way.

I would have to make the decision to intervene to stop mob violence based upon whether I thought sacrificing my life would benefit anyone. Would my action be futile and I become just one more fatality? Am I willing almost certain death or great bodily harm for a stranger? I am willing to die to save my family.

Mobs can therefore be powerful, durable, dangerous and unpredictable.
 
There are many different flavors of mobs and the mob flavor will be a determinate. The Grab-N-Git bunch on the OP video should be given distance and little interference, which, in my view, is true of any mob; however, it’s the unavoidable or inescapable mob geared up for violence, aka the bunch at the state fair, that presents a problem. No easy answers come to mind, but having a concealed firearm would definitely be better than not.

While it is true that mobs have overcome someone with a weapon or gun, I would think there more instances that a crowd clears the area when the shooting starts.

The OP asks if you would try to help or defend in a mob situation. Your state law will play a part in the equation. Some states will “allow” intervention, some will not.
 
The "flash mobs" in Philly are violent. They are not just stealing they are beating up random white people that they view as easy targets. The reports are that they are ALL African American youths, mostly in their teens. Several people have been critically harmed, some permanently.

Firearms, may or may not be effective in keeping you and your family safe. That's the bottom line. Keeping you and yours UNHARMED. I have been carrying pepper spray in addition to a firearm as I believe that could be the best way to deal with a crowd and give you time to get away while not bringing the wrath of the urban legal system against you later.
 
The biggest problem I see is that you are no longer facing 1, 2, or 3 opponents, you are facing what may as well be a stone age army, that may have a couple guns themselves. I say stone age, because their tactics will be as such. It's the same as handing a kid a knife and watching him flail wildly, or a gun and he just empties a magazine in the general direction. May seem "untrained" and unruly but it's no less deadly as a group of trained men with the same weapons.

That being said, you treat them as what they are, a mob. You do what you can top put yourself into a position to "funnel" them, whether or not you even plan to fight. Do this, call 911, and be ready to engage them however you can. I'd suggest finding a melee weapon just in case, and be prepared to drop your magazine and empty the chamber. They can still pick it up and load it, but it buys you time if they are swarming you and grabbing it.

My two cents...
 
On the positive, if we follow the tried and true rules for most petty dictatorships, mobs break up quickly when live fire starts.
 
I think at some point a mob is going to come into contact with someone like Jerome Ersland.

An armed citizen who has poor judgement, and just blasts away at a mob. I'm not defending or advocating it, but it might have an effect on mobs after a well publicized incident of flash mobbers getting shot.

I always waffle on this because on one hand criminals are generally stupid, irrational, undiciplined, impulsive, compulsive and myopic. If they were rational and used more forethought they wouldn't be criminals (in most cases).

But the flash mob phenomenon is something that requires planning and forethought.

If the people who are doing this are capable of thinking ahead enough to plan the robbery or attack, then a well publicized shooting of multiple mob members during the commission of a crime might disuade this activity in the future.

But for me personally - if I don't have a loved one to protect, I would flee the situation. Yes I'd like to help, but there are just too many varibles in the situation - too many things that can go wrong.
 
The chance of a mob taking your weapon is a very real possibility. This is probably why correctional officers rarely are armed with firearms, unless theyre up high or behind something. Maybe some CO's on tfl will chime in. I bet they could share some valuable insight.
 
to the OP, if no one is causing anyone any harm, why would you want to get involved? stay out, leave and call authorietys to last poster. I would definately get involved if I had a loved one being threatened and also if anyone was too. Might be a woman being raped, someones dad being beat the list goes on and on. Yes usually alittle gunfire goes along way and mobs break up and everyones flees pretty quickly. If not, hope I got enough ammo on hand and still call and get back up before I start but dont see someone in need and flee. Thats whats wrong with society today!!!! In my opinion anyway.
 
it gets dicey with these flash mobs - it's a new thing with new dynamics.

I'm going to start shooting because someone got pushed down and had their backpack stolen?

I'm going to start waving my gun in the air because someone got punched in the mouth and had their iPad lifted?

it's not like rape or armed robbery... it's a different dynamic.
 
There was a mob rape incident in central park nyc several years ago. Caught on video. Girls getring raped. No one did a thing. Except film it and cheer the crowd on even more.
 
Threegun, there are clear instances of armed folks not firing on a mob and becoming paralyed. They are then disarmed - and doesn't go well.

Thus, some mobs will attack such and the defender always doesn't come out well.
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Glenn I agree. I don't plan on taking one on. If I was however forced to take one on I would do so with the belief that the crowd will begin to retreat once I start firing. If I am forced to get violent then death or grave bodily injury was eminent anyway so if they don't run away I am no worse off. In any event that I am forced to become violent, I hope to fight as viciously and savagely as my body, weaponry, and training allow. If it is enough and I am lucky enough to survive awesome. If it isn't enough and I die, at least it was while fighting back.

I still haven't seen anyone advance on an active shooter more than a few steps. If 5 bowling pins fall in just a few seconds imagine how many targets three times wider can be hit in the same time. A lot of hurt can be dished rather quickly especially up close and when combined with good tactics. Maintaining separation would be key.
 
I would act to stop a group from raping a woman as the very act in a group scenario (or even a single rapist) as it obviously puts her life in danger or alternatively I would act to stop them from killing someone but they could rob till the cows come home and that’s fine with me.
 
I'm going to start shooting because someone got pushed down and had their backpack stolen?

I'm going to start waving my gun in the air because someone got punched in the mouth and had their iPad lifted?
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I wouldn't be shooting because they hit me in the mouth. I would be shooting because multiple attackers are starting an attack on me which in my mind CLEARLY constitutes a eminent risk of death or grave bodily injury.

I wouldn't shoot if my powers of knowing the outcome in advance were working. Since a fat lip isn't worth a life.
 
Glenn, We have flash mobs stealing stuff from a retailer. If the difference between larceny and robbery is the element of fear, are the flash mob participants robbing the retailer (I'm sure they are in fear)? Robbery in most States constitutes intent to cause death or GBI. Number of attackers constitutes ability. If they are closing on you that would give them opportunity.

Seems like a flash mob could be met with lethal force if they refused to stop advancing on you after you confronted them.

How do you see it?
 
NO lawyer here, but if a group of folks committing a crime continue to approach you after being warned that you are in fear of your life and they said bad things to you - I suspect disparity of force would be your defense if you open fire.

Being the fine scholar that I am - I am currently reading a heavy tome about killing in self defense by an Oxford law professor that reviews this concept in an historical and international manner.

To the question, Threegun, there is a whole chapter of the need to retreat and the use of lethal force. Should you retreat?

It's dense. Right now, she's discussing the difference between justification and excuse.
 
Another reason why I live in Maine. The only new factor in all of this is technology, and IMHO flash mob violence is over-hyped by the media. Remember all the "wilding" stories from ten or so years ago?

I grew up in a pretty big East coast city, and was part of school integration in the 70's. I've had some experience with angry mobs who look for race based targets. The best advice I can give is to get out fast and call the police. One man with a gun, but without a badge, can't fix an angry mob. But he can get himself in jail and on the top of the local news.
 
I thought it was over-hyped too and I even posted so here in this forum, but I talked to a cousin who is a CPD officer and he told me it actually had occurred in Chicago a lot more than the few instances which made the news.

Quite a bit more

He recounted six incidents that never made the news, they happened at retailers downtown, and three incidents that were flash mobbing at the beach but they weren't reported as such.

If a dozen delinquints in a pack roving the beach, decide to pick on someone and steal their pop money - it's just a mugging.

If a dozen delinquints come from six different directions and suddenly descend on some poor guy, beat him up and take his pop money and then dissapear to the four corners of the Earth - it's a flash mob. But to the victim and the responding officers it's hard to tell the difference, one from the other.
 
To the question, Threegun, there is a whole chapter of the need to retreat and the use of lethal force. Should you retreat?
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My angle comes from being a shop manager. I have a right to protect our merchandise. I feel as though it is my duty to prevent harm from coming to the store while under my management.

My boss has always maintained a save yourself mindset. He does allow us the means to do so (allowing us to carry). He knows that us protecting ourselves makes his inventory tougher to remove. He has said that if caught behind in the reactionary curve or being held at gunpoint to comply. He can make the money back. Kinda nice to know.
 
My angle comes from being a shop manager. I have a right to protect our merchandise. I feel as though it is my duty to prevent harm from coming to the store while under my management.

My boss has always maintained a save yourself mindset. He does allow us the means to do so (allowing us to carry). He knows that us protecting ourselves makes his inventory tougher to remove. He has said that if caught behind in the reactionary curve or being held at gunpoint to comply. He can make the money back. Kinda nice to know.
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I am suprised the owner can get insurance for his business. Because of endless lawsuits many insurance companies wont issue a policy without a "no guns allowed" sign in the window.
 
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