FBI is officially moving back to 9mm. Awesome.

round and round

I've seen a pic of the original letters/memo's of agents asking for .45 autos back in the early "auto bandit" days, and the Bureau's reply was that the .38 spl revolver was the best gun for the agent(s) overall. Not sure they maintained that stance, given that the spec agents nailed Dillinger with .45 acp, and the .357 debuted in that era, with #1 given to HOOVER himself, but that was the agencies first response. So they got that wrong.

In my era, they recommended the 110 .38 spl +P+ load, the "Treasury Load".
My extremely conservative outfit switched to 125/110 mags when that round failed dismally in some actual shootings. So they got that wrong too.

Then they lost 3 brave men with the 9mm, early Silvertip ammo, and some debatable tactics and bad circumstances in Miami. So they came up with the 10mm, which was to hot, and to big, (wrong) so we got the watered down 10mm, (wrong) which morphed into the .40 S&W.

And now the .40 is wrong, so we should go back to the 9mm.

I'll stick with .45acp
 
And now the .40 is wrong, so we should go back to the 9mm.

I'll stick with .45acp
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You have a good view of things in regard to the FBI waffling, but in their defense, over the years different staff came and went, and the staff is not always the best place to make gun choices for various reasons, just like in a police department. Once they become Chief or whatever designation the organization calls the big boss they become more of a politician than a cop or FBI street agent. They now make decisions based on bean counters and/or political winds from all areas and disciplines. The ones hiding behind a desk without skin in the game of Life & Death do not always make decisions that effect the troops in the fray from the street perspective anymore.

Personally, I could care less what the FBI carries, but that filters down to the Police Chiefs ... brothers in bureaucratic decisions based on anticipatory self-defense tactics to cover their butts when things go down badly. The street cops or agents knocking on doors of suspects who are killers and loaded for bear see things a little differently than the staff who is out jogging and consuming java at noon on the Mall in DC! This is what I don't like about the back and forth changes, now requiring years of training to update the muscle memory and years of training with the last gun and setups and dynamics of recoil, recovery and most importantly the Trigger. If was bad going from revolver to DA/SA autos for some, now going to who knows from all the choices of trigger designs today. The good shooters such as some here on this forum adjust quickly, but the talking suits from Harvard and Yale may not, with previous life experiences of shooting during video games as their resume!

Oh well, I don't want to tell you more than you may want to know.
 
This is what I don't like about the back and forth changes, now requiring years of training to update the muscle memory and years of training with the last gun and setups and dynamics of recoil, recovery and most importantly the Trigger.
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I would be amazed if they didn't simply transition from the Glock 23 to the Glock 19. I haven't seen an announcement of a competition for a new handgun, just a caliber change. Going to the 19 would allow them to use the same holsters and probably require the least expenditure. Were they to hold a competition, I imagine it would be for a similar striker fired pistol. I don't think it would require much retraining.

The good shooters such as some here on this forum adjust quickly, but the talking suits from Harvard and Yale may not, with previous life experiences of shooting during video games as their resume!
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I think this is a bit disingenuous. I have an advanced degree, albeit not from Harvard or Yale, but I still do plenty of shooting. I also played video games growing up too.

You also can't have it both ways. Either they're jogging around DC to the local Starbucks and it won't matter if they adopt a new pistol, or they're actually in the field on occasion and it will matter.
 
A cop fired 17 times in St Louis yesterday at one guy that fired 3 times at him. The report is the bad guy's gun jammed and he was killed. This doesn't say much for the 9mm being powerful enough or easy to shoot. If the FBI waits long enough they will Change their mind about going to 9mm. I carry the 9mm sometimes but I don't know where all of the gun gurus think it is equal. The claim that the 9mm will test as well as other calibers is just not true as you can see in the photos below. The wound channel in the 9mm gel shows it is not equal to other calibers. These tests pictures were not picked using cheap ammo and the same guy did all the testing. If you feel fine with the 9mm that is good but for everyone to say it is equal is BS. A picture is worth a 1000 words but people seem to ignore the truth. I can see where some people could never hit with a larger caliber and the 9mm is the way to go but it is not equal and never will be no matter how much people claim it is.
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http://tapatalk.imageshack.com

Then there is the undisputed all time man killer the .357'Mag [IMG]http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/10/3752f01d609525ffdebc663972befbd5.jpg
 
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I am not that impressed with what the military or LE uses because of so many artificial self imposed restrictions interfering with the selection process. Guns are tools and a one size never fits all. That's what these organizations want but can never achieve it.

Give me a gun that holds at least 12 rounds of the largest size bullet, with the most ftlbs, that still is in a reasonable size and weight to carry concealed.
That's the 40S&w at 505ftlbs with a 165grain Hornady FTX bullet.
I don't need to be convinced of what it can do. I have seen it first hand with similar loads out of my 10mm with broad side shots on whitetail.



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I think this is a bit disingenuous. I have an advanced degree, albeit not from Harvard or Yale, but I still do plenty of shooting. I also played video games growing up too.
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No offense intended, just a little drama to make a point...
 
A cop fired 17 times in St Louis yesterday at one guy that fired 3 times at him. The report is the bad guy's gun jammed and he was killed. This doesn't say much for the 9mm being powerful enough or easy to shoot.
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You lost me here. An officer empties a magazine, not the first time by a long shot, and suddenly the 9mm is the problem? For that matter I haven't heard of any autopsy reports yet so we don't even know how many times the suspect was hit. I remember hearing that accuracy under fire goes down to about 17% of what can be achieved under ideal circumstances. You may look at this as, "wow he had to fire 17 times to end the threat, 9mm must be underpowered", whereas I look at it as, "wow he had to fire 17 times to end the threat, good thing he had the capacity of the 9mm to get to that critical shot".

An instructor once explained to me that there are two ways to stop a threat: timers and switches. Shots to the gut, extremities, etc. are timers. They will cause the person to possibly bleed out and become incapacitated and certain areas will have shorter times (liver, kidney, etc.). Shots to the central nervous system or upper thorax (depending on the hit) are switches. They end the threat immediately. The fact is handguns are underpowered. If you don't hit one of those vital areas the fight might not end any time soon. You shoot until the threat stops and that may not be as soon as you expect.

Edit: By the way the gentleman that did those ballistic tests you showed carries a Glock 19, a 9mm.

Don't y'all get tired of endless handgun ammo debates?
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Lol, we could have another argument about polymer vs. metal or Glock vs. choice of the day. It's almost guy finds a continent day, might as well spin those wheels.
 
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This is absolutely correct. Accuracy is everything. Everyone talks about caliber but no one talks about training and accuracy. You cant miss fast enough regardless of caliber. The "all things being equal" is always implied when caliber and stopping power is discussed. The issue is if you cant make proper shot placement, then you probably have bigger issues to address than what caliber you chose. ;) A PMR 30 filled with 22magnum that can stack bullets in the 10 ring all day long is a heck of alot more deadly than a 9mm that struggles to make center mass shots.


An instructor once explained to me that there are two ways to stop a threat: timers and switches. Shots to the gut, extremities, etc. are timers. They will cause the person to possibly bleed out and become incapacitated and certain areas will have shorter times (liver, kidney, etc.). Shots to the central nervous system or upper thorax (depending on the hit) are switches. They end the threat immediately. The fact is handguns are underpowered. If you don't hit one of those vital areas the fight might not end any time soon. You shoot until the threat stops and that may not be as soon as you expect.
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Everyone talks about caliber but no one talks about training and accuracy.
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I was rewatching this today thanks to this discussion. Not 100% accurate (notably the Mini 14 is automatic in the video :rolleyes:) but a decent dramatization. Platt was shot 12 times. He had a collapsed lung and 1.3 liters of blood in his chest cavity. The man was a former Army Ranger in Vietnam. FBI was not prepared. Mireles though was a hero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04dUCT-qO3c
 
A cop fired 17 times in St Louis yesterday at one guy that fired 3 times at him. The report is the bad guy's gun jammed and he was killed. This doesn't say much for the 9mm being powerful enough or easy to shoot.
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From the preliminary coroners report, 6 or 7 rounds of the 17 struck the suspect. The variance because possibly two shots struck the same spot. But the one wound that stopped, and killed the attacker was to the head.

Not saying any other caliber would have made any difference. Just that placement trumps performance, and the odds of getting that one shot where it needs to be is higher with a higher capacity firearm.
 
Are we there yet................

The debate will continue forever.
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The debate will continue forever because of the unlimited amount of these super weird gun hobbyists that spread myth and folklore as fact. They act as if they invented the cartridges they're defending and will fight to the death with the gadsden flag draped over them.


"45 is the best!! AAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
Gadsden-Flag-at-Tea-Party-rally.jpg
 
The debate will continue forever because of the unlimited amount of these super weird gun hobbyists that spread myth and folklore as fact. They act as if they invented the cartridges they're defending and will fight to the death with the gadsden flag draped over them.
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No different than AK vs. AR, Ford vs. Chevy, Margarine vs. Butter. People disagree and debate, it's what helped us get to where we are now (for better or worse)
 
If you're on motorcycle forums, you're probably familiar with "The Oil Thread", that never-dying, periodically sleeping and then-awakening debate over what is the best oil. Brands, weights, synthetic vs. dino juice, it's all up for argument, over and over and over again. This is kinda like that.
 
If you're on motorcycle forums, you're probably familiar with "The Oil Thread", that never-dying, periodically sleeping and then-awakening debate over what is the best oil. Brands, weights, synthetic vs. dino juice, it's all up for argument, over and over and over again. This is kinda like that.
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That's silly. Everyone knows AMSOIL is the best. :D
 
Maybe the problem is training our officers in the strategy of emptying a full mag into a threat without teaching the officer to evaluate if the rounds are having any effect.

Whatever happened to the Double Tap and the Mozambique Drill?.....
 
All I know is that a clip full of 9 millimeter bullets in an automatic doesn't have the knock down power of a 45 that can knock a man off his feet even if you hit him in the finger. But for a pistol that can really do the job just get a S&W 44 Magnum like Dirty Harry's. ;););)




There, that should keep 'em going!:eek:
 
Use what you like and shoot best. I'm happy with my XDm .40 with 16 rounds in the mag. If I ever find myself in need of shots 17, 18, and 19, I'll do a combat reload and have 16 more rounds.

On the other hand, for a carry-everyday gun, I'd probably go with a 9mm, simply because there are more good small guns in that caliber, and in that size of a gun the otherwise minor difference in recoil would be more pronounced. By the way, if people think the recoil difference between 9 and 40 is significant, they should just fire 6 rounds out of a .357 magnum in a revolver. .40 won't seem so bad anymore...

Love the talk of "myths and folklore". Now they are trading one myth for another....the 9mm magic-bullet myth.
 
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