NedreckSavant
New member
steelheart +100
Branch Davidians to be released
- Thread starter Natty
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let me prove to you that the Gov fired first...
the davidians had a 2+ story house overlooking a 300 yard driveway. they had access to a legaly owned 50 caliber rifle. If they had intended on killing Government agents, if the had intended to ambush AFT agents, if they knew that the FEDS were coming, they would have gone upstairs and shot the engine of the truck pulling the cattle car full of feds then picked off the agents one by one as they fled through the scrub grass in black ninja suits w/ no cover.
the davidians had a 2+ story house overlooking a 300 yard driveway. they had access to a legaly owned 50 caliber rifle. If they had intended on killing Government agents, if the had intended to ambush AFT agents, if they knew that the FEDS were coming, they would have gone upstairs and shot the engine of the truck pulling the cattle car full of feds then picked off the agents one by one as they fled through the scrub grass in black ninja suits w/ no cover.
Branch Davidians, BATF, FBI, etc.
I watched the whole affair on TV, what little the Govt. would let anybody see at a great distance. I have a right to an opinion and it is thus: The whole situation could have been easily avoided, handled much differently, quite likely without injury and fatalities. Texans, slightly weird religious sects included do not like poorly trained Federal Government "pogues" goose stepping in with their MP5s, tanks, and helicopters and launching an assualt which they intended in the first place. The Texas Rangers didn't like it, most citizens didn't like it and all the damnyankee propaganda from Washington and the toadies up there including Janet Reno and Bill Clinton's support are all hot air.
Then another person sits down there and witnesses the massacre, goes off his rocker over the horrible scene and plots and plans and blows up a building in Oklahoma and murders a hundred and some odd innocents, ruins the lives of thousands of others, costs the Federal Govt. and the State of Oklahoma millions, destroys a fine building and is executed for it as he well deserved.
Moral of the story, Government Storm Troopers knew some of them might possibly be killed, and some were. Would have been a good day to have called in sick. Texas has some fine law enforcement personnel as was the Sheriff of that county at the time, he could have handled it, period!
I watched the whole affair on TV, what little the Govt. would let anybody see at a great distance. I have a right to an opinion and it is thus: The whole situation could have been easily avoided, handled much differently, quite likely without injury and fatalities. Texans, slightly weird religious sects included do not like poorly trained Federal Government "pogues" goose stepping in with their MP5s, tanks, and helicopters and launching an assualt which they intended in the first place. The Texas Rangers didn't like it, most citizens didn't like it and all the damnyankee propaganda from Washington and the toadies up there including Janet Reno and Bill Clinton's support are all hot air.
Then another person sits down there and witnesses the massacre, goes off his rocker over the horrible scene and plots and plans and blows up a building in Oklahoma and murders a hundred and some odd innocents, ruins the lives of thousands of others, costs the Federal Govt. and the State of Oklahoma millions, destroys a fine building and is executed for it as he well deserved.
Moral of the story, Government Storm Troopers knew some of them might possibly be killed, and some were. Would have been a good day to have called in sick. Texas has some fine law enforcement personnel as was the Sheriff of that county at the time, he could have handled it, period!
NedreckSavant
New member
PSE has a very good point. Had the 'child abusing cultists' wanted to start some trouble, they surely could have put up a much better fight (and probably garnered more support in doing it, how many of us wouldn't like to see the government lose for a change?)
Cmu_Sniper
New member
Sure they should be released, after all it is our governments fault all the time.
They should have allowed those people to continue to pile weapons and ammo for there defense. Then the day they decided to rise up and attack thru there religious calling telling that God sent them to kill, everyone would have said,"The ATF had knowledge of all those weapons, why didnt they do something about it." Lose, Lose situation for the ATF. What was done was done, maybe could have been done differently. However the ATF is taking applications if you all feel you can do so much better.
Citizens view of Law Enforcement - Everyone has the nerve to point out the bad points and put them down, but most of those big mouths dont have what it takes to walk the walk.
They should have allowed those people to continue to pile weapons and ammo for there defense. Then the day they decided to rise up and attack thru there religious calling telling that God sent them to kill, everyone would have said,"The ATF had knowledge of all those weapons, why didnt they do something about it." Lose, Lose situation for the ATF. What was done was done, maybe could have been done differently. However the ATF is taking applications if you all feel you can do so much better.Citizens view of Law Enforcement - Everyone has the nerve to point out the bad points and put them down, but most of those big mouths dont have what it takes to walk the walk.
Yes, the branch davidians were complicit in the happenings. Yes, perhaps they could have been sucessfully prosecuted for something (although exactly what is still not clear) but we all knew that they were a fringe element of dubious reasoning ability.
The FBI had 51 days to consider their options. Unlike the Davidians, The FBI is supposed to be reasonable, sensible, thoughtful people, who are sensitive to the lives of innocents......and when they are found not to be so, they should be held accountable.
They were to my knowledge, not held accountable. Indeed, it appears to be a cover up. This deminishes the credibility of the FBI!
We know and really always did know about the Davidians but that the FBI acted in what appears to be a criminal manner is surprising! That they were NOT called to account for their decisions and punished is shocking to me!
PigPen
The FBI had 51 days to consider their options. Unlike the Davidians, The FBI is supposed to be reasonable, sensible, thoughtful people, who are sensitive to the lives of innocents......and when they are found not to be so, they should be held accountable.
They were to my knowledge, not held accountable. Indeed, it appears to be a cover up. This deminishes the credibility of the FBI!
We know and really always did know about the Davidians but that the FBI acted in what appears to be a criminal manner is surprising! That they were NOT called to account for their decisions and punished is shocking to me!
PigPen
Scott Conklin
New member
Wow. So...just out of curiosity, umm, how's your stockpile coming...?
So...umm...was this ever offered as an excuse...erm...justification...umm...reason by the government? This pre-event strike you seem to be advocating? For an event you alone seem to know was coming? Can you back it up any?
Because no crime had previously been committed and the government doesn't get to murder you because of what you might do?
This may be one of the most bizarrely convoluted lines of reasoning I've ever seen on this topic. And I've seen some doozies. Wow.
Dear God. Who would want to soil their family name...
As I recall, Senator Schumer lead the attack on critics of the ATF and FBI in the investigation that followed. He was very effective.
After watching him rant about how 'a little tear gas was no big deal' I really wanted to stick a cannister of CS in his mouth and punch him out. Maybe someday.
After watching him rant about how 'a little tear gas was no big deal' I really wanted to stick a cannister of CS in his mouth and punch him out. Maybe someday.
NedreckSavant
New member
well relatively speaking a lil can o teargas isn't that big a deal. Compared to some of the other options available to law enforcement, teargas sounds pretty good when your house is still standing and you have your hide in one piece. And hell, not even a bruise from a rubber bullet. Teargas sounds pretty good...
NedreckSavant
New member
unhappy yes, lifechanging or devastating to the point that I find the police using it to be a big deal...no.
edited: I do understand the importance of not using it around pregnant mothers/little kids though. In that respect it can be a big deal but otherwise...notsomuch.
edited: I do understand the importance of not using it around pregnant mothers/little kids though. In that respect it can be a big deal but otherwise...notsomuch.
how about using it in moderation. It has been stated that they inserted way more CS than is deemed safe(don't ask me for numbers or anything) and the ATF knew, (let me emphasise this) THE ATF KNEW they did not have gas masks that would fit the children. As a father, I am disturbed by the fact that a government agency would willingly subject my 2yr old daughter to twice to amount of CS gas for DAYS than they will subject soldiers to for 5 minutes during training. All other debates aside, Isn't it the responsability of the LE agency to ensure the safty of all innocent bystanders. Or were the little children armed combatants?
I admit upfront that I do not know all the facts, but unlike some here, I at least know some of them...
I just wanted to bring this up again, because I felt like I was the only one to notice this.
I admit upfront that I do not know all the facts, but unlike some here, I at least know some of them...
OH MY GOD!
I am sorry. I can not even read the entire thread my blood is boiling so much.
Did anyone see the HBO special on the Waco tragedy? It was shown that after the fires were lit by our Govt' that they had fully automatic weapons positioned to kill anyone who tried to escape.
How in the H E double toothpicks can you ever even think about justifying this action that the Govt' took? Huh? I was in LE for years. And it is never "legal" to break the law. Even if you are a LEO. They killed them in cold blood.
MY GOD! Please forgive my outrage. When it is said that "Freedom isn't Free". It means we remember ALL the people who made the extreme sacrafice to defend our liberty. The liberty to protect ourselves from tyranny and oppression. The people who were murdered by our own Govt' at Waco were/are heros. They fought for their right to bear arms....and Reno/Clinton killed them for it.
Shame on anyone who disgraces their memory with nothing but reverence.
Long live the 2nd amd! Or I too will die trying to protect it. What will you do with out liberty????
How many people here have quotes in their signature lines of famous people....even Ghandi for cripes sake, that espouse the importance or an armed populace.
History...Lest we forget are doomed to repeat. I will never forget any of those in armed forces that have paid the ultimate sacrafice to defend my freedom. I owe it to them. I owe it to the citizens in Waco and Ruby Ridge too. They died fighting for liberty!
Good to hear they are finally being released. I do NOT agree with the way the Branch Davidians were living their lives. It is not for me. I am not into that kind of "society". But I am into the liberty and justice for ALL!!!!!!! Not just those who are in the mainstream. My goodness. Even the most liberal person I know treats Waco as a huge disappointment in the Clinton Administartion.
Watch the tape. The Govt'....our Govt' kills people trying to escape the flames.....that the Govt' set in the first place. The Govt' smoked 'em out and then set the trap. The only escape out of the burning compound was through two machine gun nests.
NO LAW OR WARRENT IS LEGAL IF IT VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTION.
I can not even believe their are people who would chime in on this without all the facts.
Look at the reprocussions Waco and Ruby Ridge had. Oklahoma City. Violence begets more violence. I would never in a million years condone what Timothy McVeigh and group did in OK City. I am merely pointing out that if you treat groups in our society with violence. Then that violent act will beget more violence. What a shame.
Please forgive me if I am passionate about this post. My Lord knows that my intentions are well placed but, I may not be communicating my intentions properly. May he show me the way and the light and forgive my temper.
I am sorry. I can not even read the entire thread my blood is boiling so much.
Did anyone see the HBO special on the Waco tragedy? It was shown that after the fires were lit by our Govt' that they had fully automatic weapons positioned to kill anyone who tried to escape.
How in the H E double toothpicks can you ever even think about justifying this action that the Govt' took? Huh? I was in LE for years. And it is never "legal" to break the law. Even if you are a LEO. They killed them in cold blood.
MY GOD! Please forgive my outrage. When it is said that "Freedom isn't Free". It means we remember ALL the people who made the extreme sacrafice to defend our liberty. The liberty to protect ourselves from tyranny and oppression. The people who were murdered by our own Govt' at Waco were/are heros. They fought for their right to bear arms....and Reno/Clinton killed them for it.
Shame on anyone who disgraces their memory with nothing but reverence.
Long live the 2nd amd! Or I too will die trying to protect it. What will you do with out liberty????
How many people here have quotes in their signature lines of famous people....even Ghandi for cripes sake, that espouse the importance or an armed populace.
History...Lest we forget are doomed to repeat. I will never forget any of those in armed forces that have paid the ultimate sacrafice to defend my freedom. I owe it to them. I owe it to the citizens in Waco and Ruby Ridge too. They died fighting for liberty!
Good to hear they are finally being released. I do NOT agree with the way the Branch Davidians were living their lives. It is not for me. I am not into that kind of "society". But I am into the liberty and justice for ALL!!!!!!! Not just those who are in the mainstream. My goodness. Even the most liberal person I know treats Waco as a huge disappointment in the Clinton Administartion.
Watch the tape. The Govt'....our Govt' kills people trying to escape the flames.....that the Govt' set in the first place. The Govt' smoked 'em out and then set the trap. The only escape out of the burning compound was through two machine gun nests.
NO LAW OR WARRENT IS LEGAL IF IT VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTION.
I can not even believe their are people who would chime in on this without all the facts.
Look at the reprocussions Waco and Ruby Ridge had. Oklahoma City. Violence begets more violence. I would never in a million years condone what Timothy McVeigh and group did in OK City. I am merely pointing out that if you treat groups in our society with violence. Then that violent act will beget more violence. What a shame.
Please forgive me if I am passionate about this post. My Lord knows that my intentions are well placed but, I may not be communicating my intentions properly. May he show me the way and the light and forgive my temper.
Scott Conklin
New member
2ndamd? Hey. it's MINI ME!!!!!!!!
Well said, except I'd have to argue about what they were fighting for. They fought for their lives. I doubt any noble concerns like liberty or the 2A entered their minds or were part of what got them to that point. Those are meanings some of us have found in it all after the fact...
Well said, except I'd have to argue about what they were fighting for. They fought for their lives. I doubt any noble concerns like liberty or the 2A entered their minds or were part of what got them to that point. Those are meanings some of us have found in it all after the fact...
Well said, except I'd have to argue about what they were fighting for. They fought for their lives. I doubt any noble concerns like liberty or the 2A entered their minds or were part of what got them to that point. Those are meanings some of us have found in it all after the fact...
Today 03:51 AM
Life and Liberty are one in the same for me.
Any one who has to endure despotism and oppression are heros in my book. That includes too many groups to lit here but, I will list a few:
The Christians that were being fed to the lions in Rome.
The Apostles of Christ
The Jews in Poland, Germany in 1938-1944
The gypsies in Hungary
The Catholics in No. Ireland
The Native Americans ie Indians
The Black slaves in this country
The Blacks in South Africa
The people of india when under British rule
etc etc etc. I guess what I am trying to show. Is that almost ALL people on this earth have had to endure some sort of oppression or attack by other groups. Please try to ensure that you are on the side of rightousness and not on the side of the oppressor. It can be a grey line at times for some. It is never too late to change sides.....because in the end you are not changing sides. The side you were on changed from being rightous to indignant. And I will not support a despotism, oligarchy, or any other form of oppression.
Let hate not fill our heart, but the joy of knowing that we are fighting for rightousness and justice. Justice is only dead if good men and women let it die.
I could go on and on. But for the sake of brevity sufice it to say that the Branch Davidians were looked upon by our govt' as second class citizens and tryied to treat them with improper due process. As far as I am concerned the Branch Davidians were not only defending their lives. They were defending the 2nd and 4th amd.s of the constitution.
The govt will learn not to push it's people too hard. An armed populace is CRITICAL to the survival of Liberty!
Okay seriously now......I will step down from my soap box.
p.s. mini me....lol!
Today 03:51 AM
Life and Liberty are one in the same for me.
Any one who has to endure despotism and oppression are heros in my book. That includes too many groups to lit here but, I will list a few:
The Christians that were being fed to the lions in Rome.
The Apostles of Christ
The Jews in Poland, Germany in 1938-1944
The gypsies in Hungary
The Catholics in No. Ireland
The Native Americans ie Indians
The Black slaves in this country
The Blacks in South Africa
The people of india when under British rule
etc etc etc. I guess what I am trying to show. Is that almost ALL people on this earth have had to endure some sort of oppression or attack by other groups. Please try to ensure that you are on the side of rightousness and not on the side of the oppressor. It can be a grey line at times for some. It is never too late to change sides.....because in the end you are not changing sides. The side you were on changed from being rightous to indignant. And I will not support a despotism, oligarchy, or any other form of oppression.
Let hate not fill our heart, but the joy of knowing that we are fighting for rightousness and justice. Justice is only dead if good men and women let it die.
I could go on and on. But for the sake of brevity sufice it to say that the Branch Davidians were looked upon by our govt' as second class citizens and tryied to treat them with improper due process. As far as I am concerned the Branch Davidians were not only defending their lives. They were defending the 2nd and 4th amd.s of the constitution.
The govt will learn not to push it's people too hard. An armed populace is CRITICAL to the survival of Liberty!
Okay seriously now......I will step down from my soap box.
p.s. mini me....lol!
NedreckSavant
Dear NedreckSavant:
The level of CS gas inserted into the buildings at WACO would transform you into a slobbering bawling baby, unable to clean the vomit or feces from the orifices of your body.
(please note that these are the physiological effects of CS gas when used at a level immediately dangerous to life and health).
Dear NedreckSavant:
The level of CS gas inserted into the buildings at WACO would transform you into a slobbering bawling baby, unable to clean the vomit or feces from the orifices of your body.
(please note that these are the physiological effects of CS gas when used at a level immediately dangerous to life and health).
Last edited:
Savage10FP308
Moderator
Please allow me to put my flame suit on...
No pun intended! Are you guys serious? What evidence do you have to show that they fired first? I clearly remember reading a post on the first page where someone claims that the govt. fired first and then later says (in the same post) that we will never know the full story of what happened that day! You are half right! We don't know exactly what happened and that's one of the things we don't know about. I then read that they shouldn't have used all that tear gas because there were women and children inside. So, does that mean that those branch davidian men were inside hiding behind there women and children. What is wrong with sending them out? They knew the govt. wasn't just gonna leave! Some of you guys are crazy. You know what though? I normally would think people like you with guns were scary, but I think you are all talk. If 150 agents came knocking at your door, I have the feeling that you'd be getting out of your house so the govt. could walk right on in, and if you did shoot at them like the crazies (see branch davidians) did, then hopefully you would be burned as well. Those govt. agents aren't robots people. They have family at home too. They are just doing their job. If you don't like the way this country works then don't let the door hit you on the backside on the way out!:barf:
No pun intended! Are you guys serious? What evidence do you have to show that they fired first? I clearly remember reading a post on the first page where someone claims that the govt. fired first and then later says (in the same post) that we will never know the full story of what happened that day! You are half right! We don't know exactly what happened and that's one of the things we don't know about. I then read that they shouldn't have used all that tear gas because there were women and children inside. So, does that mean that those branch davidian men were inside hiding behind there women and children. What is wrong with sending them out? They knew the govt. wasn't just gonna leave! Some of you guys are crazy. You know what though? I normally would think people like you with guns were scary, but I think you are all talk. If 150 agents came knocking at your door, I have the feeling that you'd be getting out of your house so the govt. could walk right on in, and if you did shoot at them like the crazies (see branch davidians) did, then hopefully you would be burned as well. Those govt. agents aren't robots people. They have family at home too. They are just doing their job. If you don't like the way this country works then don't let the door hit you on the backside on the way out!:barf:
Scott Conklin
New member
You just really don't have a clue, do you? You either don't read or don't won't allow your agenda to be dented. Whatever, it's too silly to deal with. And here I never used to use the ignore feature. Either my skin must be getting thinner or the Trolls thicker... Don't like the way the country works then leave because...well, you do so it's all good, eh?
Jesus wept.
Jesus wept.
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