Branch Davidians to be released

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First we were told it was drugs, then guns, then sexual abuse. We were not told that Koresh could have been apprehended at any time prior, during his morning breakfasts at the same place as the county Sheriff...
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Again ... it doesn't matter what we were told or what it actually was. A warrant, properly issued or not, was delivered and the LEO's delivering it were murdered. The rest doesn't matter after this fact. Again ... it's JUDGES and JURIES that handle these issues, not nuts with guns.

Could they have handled it better? In hindsight I'm sure they could have. But they would have had to enter the compound eventually.

Oh, BTW, Citizens all across the country were voicing their support for the Davidians and, IIRC, a fair number showd up down there eventually, so I guess by your position they needed to keep on fighting, eh? OTOH, IIRC, only about 5% of the population actively supported our Revolution, so maybe they should have quit? Public opinion is definitely important in these things...
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A few people showed up to support them. I'm talking about hundreds of thousands actually MARCHING and a majority of Americans (about 150 million) either actively supporting them or at least understanding them. Didn't happen. I'm a conservative guy, and during that period most of us were wondering if Clinton would have the guts to take any action at all.

And they did keep on fighting ... but with no support they got their butts kicked. And they had no support because they were nuts.

In terms of the revolution ... I've heard that about 40% of the population of the actual colonies supported the revolution. And clearly the rest didn't support the English enough to fight for them or we wouldn't have won.

But in any case, the history is clear;

Koresh and his wackos lost their battle and most Americans don't miss them.

The American revolution was a stunning success that continues to this day (not as perfect as we would like, of course, but better than most countries).

As for the others that were convicted ... they all either got their day in court or accepted a plea bargain. Whether they went before a jury or agreed to a plea, they are -- by definition, if not by fact -- guilty of what they are charged with.
 
Garand Illusion, again I ask;

... but bottom line is they got what they deserved.
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Can't say as I miss any of them ...
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Do you believe the children "got what they deserved"?

Since when is it acceptable for law enforcement to kill children/hostages because they are tired and want to go home?

This was the most inept piece of law enforcement, from beginning to end, I have ever seen.
 
Since when is it acceptable for law enforcement to kill children/hostages because they are tired and want to go home?
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Since about the time it became ok to conduct no-knock raids to keep certain drugs from being flushed down a toilet.
 
And here's a clue for y'all ... if you're in a standoff with the government, and you hear on the radio that all over America hundreds of thousands are marching to support you and threatening to bring down the government unless you are set free, then you just might be the beginning of a revolution. Keep on going and fighting, because you're doing the right thing.

If no one is marching anywhere ... then you're just a nut standing off the government, and they WILL bring in sufficient force to either bring you to justice or bring justice to you
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Garand, I'm staying out of the battle here, but I DO have a problem with this philosophy. The number of people supporting or opposing a given event is RARELY indicative of that event being "right" or "wrong."

200 years ago, most people in the southern USA thought slavery was just fine and dandy. Does that mean they were right?

A majority of black Americans supported OJ Simpson and were delighted when he got off. Does that make him innocent?

Numbers do not equal truth.
 
"A majority of black Americans supported OJ Simpson and were delighted when he got off. Does that make him innocent?"

Yes, yes it does. I sincerely hope we're still living in a nation under the rule of law, not the rule of public opinion. "He got off" means "found not guilty".
 
Garand, I'm staying out of the battle here, but I DO have a problem with this philosophy. The number of people supporting or opposing a given event is RARELY indicative of that event being "right" or "wrong."
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Obviously that's correct ... I couldn't agree more. But the number of people supporting an armed revolution is indicative of whether it will be successful whether right or wrong. 50 people with guns shooting at LEO's in a country of 200 million = useless violence; take your chances in court and avoide futile bloodshed, because you're going to lose. A few million people rallying behind those 50 people and demanding change and threatening to take up arms themselves ... could be a different story; definitely something the government will have to deal with through negotation and possible compromise.

And no ... as a father, of course I don't like the thought of children being killed. But I like even less people keeping their children around them in that situation as shields. It is rather like the Iraqi's using human shields during Gulf War I. A government can't render itself powerless because the bad guys hide behind children.

And for those of you cinching down your aluminum foil hats with all your "the FBI/BATF are evil murders who refused to accept a surrender and purposefully killed and murdered that whole group" conspiracy theories ... forget about it.

As was said by several, the initial force was inadequate to be a death squad against a force like that. And when they had to build up the troops they pulled agents from all over.

Now ... I'm sure that if the heads of the FBI were evil enough for whatever reasons to want to put together a death squad to kill Americans who chose a different lifestyle than the rest of us they probably could. But I've known rank and file membes of the FBI and they are like all Leo's -- people trying to do a job and balance that with their families. The average FBI agent might defend "questionable" orders or mistakes made by fellow agents, but he will not condone or protect mass murders of children.

Besides ... if you really believe the US government is corrupt enough to do mass murders of people they disagree with, would they really do it with warrants and BATF agents? I'm thinking a spec ops group in black helicopters could have rappelled in, killed everyone, and then made it look like internal strife or some kind of accident.

If Koresh and his ilk had surrendered once they realized what had happened and fought this out in court, I might very well be on your side. Many American's might.

But when they murdered American LEO's and then hid behind their guns and children believing they were above the American justice system we all live under, they lost any semblance of the moral high ground.

And they had 51 days to change their mind.

I'm glad the government finally took action. I will mourn the children, but the adults got what they had coming to them.

Y'all can flame back however you want, but I'm done here. But NO ONE can argue the point's I've made above, because they are fact.

Unjust court orders, incorrectly issued warrants, and unconstitutional laws are fought in the courts; not by murdering LEO's doing their job.
 
To Garand Illusion's very sensible remarks, I can only add that the Branch Davidians incident illustrates how dangerous it is to march in lockstep with a charismatic leader.
 
Good thing those rebellous wackos at Lexington and Concord laid down their arms and fought their battle in court ...
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Who won? And how hard would it have been to pick the winner?

Koresh & Co. didn't have nearly the support needed to beat the entire US government, and I'm sure they knew it. To try to accomplish it anyway, using the murdering cops and children as an obviously futile tool, was just murder for no good reason. Martyrdom, if you will, only not martyrdom of the adults themselves. They took the liberty of martyring their children and each adult who cooperated took the liberty of martyring other peoples' children.

In the case of L&C, since the crown didn't win, there must have been serious popular support. It was probably quite palpable to those who actually fought the battle, and if they had started a war knowing they were going to lose it would have been murder too.
 
Garand Illusion........

I agree 100% with you.

And to all others, don't tell me about Lexington and Concord, which was war; not some wacko's shooting it out with LE.

If an LEO pulls you over for speeding, and you don't think you were speeding, does that give you the right to physically fight him? No, you fight him in court.
 
There is a show on the Documentary Channel that has footage of the Waco incident using Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR) radar. You can see flashes that would be caused by shooters using automatic weapons when the FBI claims it was not shooting.

I blame the BATFE *** oops I mean agent in charge. The purpose of the raid was for publicity. The media relations center for the BATFE was set up to the tee. The agent in charge set up the scenario for failure from the beggining because the planning was for publicity...

Then they had to bring in the FBI to clean the mess up.

The Branch Davidians were a established religion before David Koresh was born. It was first founded in 1935 near Waco. The federal government painted it as a cult for negative effect...demogogauery at its finest. The Federal Government wants you to think of them as wackos....

Just like General Billy Mitchell was court martialed and painted as crazy........

Schumer was the BATFE and the FBI's champion.........nuff said.

was the FBI evil at that time... ask Mrs. Weaver....oops shes dead, killed while holding a baby.
 
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Garand Illusion

I whole heartedly agree that any responsible parent would have removed the remaining non-combatants, especially children, from the area.

As I stated previously, we will never know the full truth of Waco. I believe it was an avoidable tragedy/travesty that could have been avoided altogether and has since been the subject of a massive disinformation campaign from both the government and conspiracy theorists. I have seen proof of some of the altered information such as an agent shot on the roof ostensibly by gunfire from inside the building when it is very clear that the agent was hit several times from above (helicopter?).

I am saddened by the loss of life both of LEOs and the non-combatants. I do know and can demonstrate with a little digging through the archives that the BATF does have a very long history of severe abuses and even some outright savagery against those fully compliant with searches. I believe it is an organization that should be disolved and its jurisdictions returned to more appropriate authorities. Come on, whose bright idea was it to combine jurisdiction for alcohol, tobacco, and firearms?

I am not passing judgement here on the agents who were killed. They may well have been shining examples of government employees at their very best. The agency as a whole can make no such claims.

I state again that I believe we should all consider v-e-r-y carefully the ramifications of looking at such a situation and saying 'they got what they deserved'.
 
OneInTheChamber

Believing you are innocent does not justify a fight in the instance of speeding. When your door is kicked in or your house surrounded by people you believe intend to kill you, a fight is definitely in the offing.

There is a man in prison in Mississippi right now for killing a police officer because they kicked in his door in the middle of the night unanounced and he shot the first one through. He ceased fire when they finally identified themselves as LE. Why did they kick in his door? Because his neighbor (duplex) was suspected of selling drugs. They included his side in the no-knock warrant entirely because of proximity. He had done nothing wrong. He heard someone at his door @ 2 am and took a weapon and placed himself in a defensive position to protect his child.

The point I am making is that however it happens, mistakes can be made. LE is not infallible.
 
Garand Illusion:

The force used against the Koresh compound was not necessary. Tanks sent to rescue children from 'being spanked too hard ...' ?? So they kill all the kids and everyone gets what they deserve, eh?

The feds knew Koresh people were using open flames for light because they had cut-off their electricity. Yet they smashed into buildings with tanks. Started a fire maybe ? Ya think ?

Also, they inserted CS gas at levels many times the upper limit of safety, immobilizing the occupants to such an extent they were probably unable to egress from the burning buildings.

It was despicable. Government out of control. Janet Reno will burn in hell for the innocents she burned alive at Waco. .... that is to say, she will one day get what SHE deserves.
 
Branch Davidians to be released...

Hell, turn 'em loose. If Lon Hourichi is still walking around free, there's nothing to keep these guys in jail for.
 
So you are saying that it is ok if a wackjob believes that the LEO at his door knocking has a "improper warrant?" Thats absurd...You know what the best part about asinine comments like that are? Its great job security for those of us who go out everyday and enforce laws that your elected government has passed, even though even so called "law abiding" citizens hate the very laws their own representatives have passed.
 
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