Branch Davidians to be released
- Thread starter Natty
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I'm not answering for him, but if an LEO knocks on my door I will answer and comply with any order served on me. On the other hand if a group of ninjas converge on my house from land, air, and sea I may feel my safety and that of my family is in danger.
If the Sheriff and a couple of plain clothes ATF Agents would have served the warrant by driving a patrol car up to the front door and knocked, this likely would not be an issue now.
Instead paramilitary jack booted thugs position themselves on the roof
and put their gun in his face. I think the evidence of the ATF firing first is not without merit.I think the ATF is as culpable for the deaths of their officers as the Davidians were.
Innocent until proven guilty?
Garand Illusion
New member
Wow ... it's amazing the level of paranoia and rage here ...
None of you screaming about the waco whackos care about the 4 LEO's who died at their hands ... of the 4 families (probably, don't know if they were married or not) that are now short a father and provider ... of the kids who they left fatherless.
Of course, the same happened to the Koresh bunch. But as has been said ... they had 51 DAYS to get themselves and/or their kids out of harms way. Instead, they used them as shields and martyrs to prove their cause. Every one of those parents who used their children like this and let them dies is a murderer who, as I have said, GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED!.
Sheez ... they did not send tanks in to stop kids from being spanked. They sent in tanks to end the standoff with the murderers who had been holding the law of the United States at bay for 51 days at gunpoint. If they had sent the tanks in on day one and burned the compound on day 1, I'd be with you. But they did none of that -- they just reacted to the murder of some of their law enforcement brothers.
The children were innocents, the parents GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED!!
Intelligent commentary my arse ... maybe the warrants were improper, it doesn't even matter at this point. And certainly the gunners in the compound hadn't researched the warrants when they met them with a hail of gunfire and then continued to shoot for 51 days. Like I said ... improper warrants are dealt with in the courts. Not with murder.
Let's see ... Janet Reno handed down orders to end a 51 day standoff against a group of armed people who had defied lawful and legal warrants (until proven otherwise in a court of law) from her desk in Washington. Because the whackos refused to surrender and kept their children in burning buildings, they all died.
If anyone is roasting in hell ... well, I'm guessing it's likely those parents who let their children be used as human shields are thinking the fire at Waco would be like a vacation compared to the fire they now face.
But if you believe in hell ... then you also believe in Salvation. I don't know -- and neither does any mortal -- what any of these people's relationship is with the Almighty. But grace is not denied those who ask for it -- irregardless of if they let their children burn or ordered the burning of children.
Now ... for sure ... I'm done here. Maybe we could all return to arguing about .45 vs. 9mm?
None of you screaming about the waco whackos care about the 4 LEO's who died at their hands ... of the 4 families (probably, don't know if they were married or not) that are now short a father and provider ... of the kids who they left fatherless.
Of course, the same happened to the Koresh bunch. But as has been said ... they had 51 DAYS to get themselves and/or their kids out of harms way. Instead, they used them as shields and martyrs to prove their cause. Every one of those parents who used their children like this and let them dies is a murderer who, as I have said, GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED!.
Sheez ... they did not send tanks in to stop kids from being spanked. They sent in tanks to end the standoff with the murderers who had been holding the law of the United States at bay for 51 days at gunpoint. If they had sent the tanks in on day one and burned the compound on day 1, I'd be with you. But they did none of that -- they just reacted to the murder of some of their law enforcement brothers.
The children were innocents, the parents GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED!!
Intelligent commentary my arse ... maybe the warrants were improper, it doesn't even matter at this point. And certainly the gunners in the compound hadn't researched the warrants when they met them with a hail of gunfire and then continued to shoot for 51 days. Like I said ... improper warrants are dealt with in the courts. Not with murder.
Let's see ... Janet Reno handed down orders to end a 51 day standoff against a group of armed people who had defied lawful and legal warrants (until proven otherwise in a court of law) from her desk in Washington. Because the whackos refused to surrender and kept their children in burning buildings, they all died.
If anyone is roasting in hell ... well, I'm guessing it's likely those parents who let their children be used as human shields are thinking the fire at Waco would be like a vacation compared to the fire they now face.
But if you believe in hell ... then you also believe in Salvation. I don't know -- and neither does any mortal -- what any of these people's relationship is with the Almighty. But grace is not denied those who ask for it -- irregardless of if they let their children burn or ordered the burning of children.
Now ... for sure ... I'm done here. Maybe we could all return to arguing about .45 vs. 9mm?
I say some of the blame resides with the BATFE agent in charge....he made the choice of a daylight raid. When warned that the Davidians were tipped off still chose to go for it. They sent these guys for a couple of weeks training in urban warfare. The raid was the equivalent of pushing Koresh in a corner.
"On July 30, 1992, two ATF agents, Jimmy Ray Skinner and Davy L. Aguilera, visited McMahon's business. Koresh had come under suspicion because of shipments of gun parts and explosives to the complex. McMahon was not under investigation at that time.
When the agents asked McMahon why Koresh was buying so many guns, McMahon replied that Koresh was an investor. McMahon said that while the agents were with him, he called Koresh on the telephone. Koresh invited the agents out to the complex to inspect what he had, but they turned down the offer, McMahon said."
"On July 30, 1992, two ATF agents, Jimmy Ray Skinner and Davy L. Aguilera, visited McMahon's business. Koresh had come under suspicion because of shipments of gun parts and explosives to the complex. McMahon was not under investigation at that time.
When the agents asked McMahon why Koresh was buying so many guns, McMahon replied that Koresh was an investor. McMahon said that while the agents were with him, he called Koresh on the telephone. Koresh invited the agents out to the complex to inspect what he had, but they turned down the offer, McMahon said."
Let's see, 70 people in a "compound" for 51 days. LEO's working 12 hour shifts then going to bed for some rest, 3 squares per day. The Davidians had nothing. How much longer could they have held out? 51 more days? I doubt it.
No life is quite as important as the life of a LEO. Only the life of a LEO justifies death before trial?
The hypocrisy is almost unbearable. 51 days go by and one day the Janet Reno/LEOs decide to take out the option of due process for the accused.
I'm glad you have acknowledged the death of innocent people on the day picked at the will of the powerful.
I assume you are a LEO GI, how many times have you administered justice without the hassle of a trial? Is it only OK if it is a LEO who is killed?
We have people running around here crying for Jose Padilla and Mussoui<sp>, poor American citizens being held as enemy combatants. I wonder what they would have said about killing them prior to arresting them?
I am not anti-LEO, go back and look at my posts. I spend far more time defending LEOs. Sometimes credibility is compromised by arguments attempting to defend the indefensible. I watched the hearings following Waco, the ATF nor the Justice Department could adequately defend their own actions.
No life is quite as important as the life of a LEO. Only the life of a LEO justifies death before trial?
The hypocrisy is almost unbearable. 51 days go by and one day the Janet Reno/LEOs decide to take out the option of due process for the accused.
I'm glad you have acknowledged the death of innocent people on the day picked at the will of the powerful.
I assume you are a LEO GI, how many times have you administered justice without the hassle of a trial? Is it only OK if it is a LEO who is killed?
We have people running around here crying for Jose Padilla and Mussoui<sp>, poor American citizens being held as enemy combatants. I wonder what they would have said about killing them prior to arresting them?
I am not anti-LEO, go back and look at my posts. I spend far more time defending LEOs. Sometimes credibility is compromised by arguments attempting to defend the indefensible. I watched the hearings following Waco, the ATF nor the Justice Department could adequately defend their own actions.
Not meaning to be a heel but after doing some reading I can kinda see how the whole mess started.
They where making machine guns. You don't go through all the work of making an underground shooting range unless you have something you want no one to hear. This is confirmed by the FACT that he did not care about bump firing late at night, so he liked autos and was getting ready to make a lot of them.
The parts needed for the autos would fit in a few shoe boxes and after a good fire would be hard to find.
He had not done anything YET(at least not caught) that is one of the larger problems the ATF faces with this.
I was not there. I was a little kid when this was happening, so I am not in a place to judge any involved.
Edit: He was a wacko that just had not done anything YET. You have to do something wrong first, then you can be hunted down. But not a minute before.
They where making machine guns. You don't go through all the work of making an underground shooting range unless you have something you want no one to hear. This is confirmed by the FACT that he did not care about bump firing late at night, so he liked autos and was getting ready to make a lot of them.
The parts needed for the autos would fit in a few shoe boxes and after a good fire would be hard to find.
He had not done anything YET(at least not caught) that is one of the larger problems the ATF faces with this.
I was not there. I was a little kid when this was happening, so I am not in a place to judge any involved.
Edit: He was a wacko that just had not done anything YET. You have to do something wrong first, then you can be hunted down. But not a minute before.
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The feds did not go there to serve warrants, they went there and started shootin up the place. I feel bad for those dead agents, their leaders got them killed for publicity. As for nobody supporting them, when this thing broke open we were all fed just exactly what the govt. wanted us to hear. Hell at first I thought 180 degrees different than I do now. I was only after the BBQ that we started getting the truth. As I said bfore the congressional hearings were something to see. shumer and co. were gleefully spouting off about what evil Bible wackers and gun nuts these people were. I also need to change my earlier post to reflact that I also believe that this was an opportunity for the clinton admin. to demonstrate what happens when gun nuts get out of line. They went to Ft. Hood where Wes Clark ran the show and got military hardware to fight these people with. There was also not one illegal weapon found there. Interestingly enough, the one weapon thay supposedly rcovered from the ashes was in pristine condition. The whole thing was B.S. Another interesting side note, the Sherrif there said he was never able to make a credible case against Koresh for abuse. Now please dont think I am defending him cause I do think he was off his nut. He was also denied the opportunity to defend his views cause they snuffed him. ERIC
Afterwards
After the trials, after the convictions, after the sentencing, aren't these things supposed to be part of the public record? Are we not supposed to be able to see these things, under the freedom of information? To the best of my knowledge, this information is still restricted.
Perhaps one of our legal eagles could explain this?
After the trials, after the convictions, after the sentencing, aren't these things supposed to be part of the public record? Are we not supposed to be able to see these things, under the freedom of information? To the best of my knowledge, this information is still restricted.
Perhaps one of our legal eagles could explain this?
Grand Illusion
First let me say I firmly believe the Branch Divid... were knuts...
But with that said, it has been shown and proved that the warrant was obtained on false information the BAFT knew was false and they went to a new magistrate that they felt would not question the information.
It has also been shown in court that it is unlawful and improper even with a search warrant to use excessive force to serve it with out due cause. As I understand it the first thing the BAFT agents did when they came in the yard was shoot the dogs that were in a pin. I can tell you with out hesitation if this is true, if a LEO shot my secured dog for no reason he would be one dead SOB.
I 'heard' that the whole first episode was a publicity stunt that went real bad.
First let me say I firmly believe the Branch Divid... were knuts...
But with that said, it has been shown and proved that the warrant was obtained on false information the BAFT knew was false and they went to a new magistrate that they felt would not question the information.
It has also been shown in court that it is unlawful and improper even with a search warrant to use excessive force to serve it with out due cause. As I understand it the first thing the BAFT agents did when they came in the yard was shoot the dogs that were in a pin. I can tell you with out hesitation if this is true, if a LEO shot my secured dog for no reason he would be one dead SOB.
I 'heard' that the whole first episode was a publicity stunt that went real bad.
i still am unclear...
it was the governments assertion that "they knew we were coming", right?
and its there assertion that "we were ambushed", right?
so why, if you know THEY are coming and your going to ambush THEM, would you let THEM pull up to the front door?
why not pop a 50 cal round through the engin block of the truck pulling the catlle cars then kill THEM as they ran out w/ no cover among the scrub grass?
doesnt sound like much of an ambush to me.
but then again what do i know. i still have connections between my 2 brain halves.
it was the governments assertion that "they knew we were coming", right?
and its there assertion that "we were ambushed", right?
so why, if you know THEY are coming and your going to ambush THEM, would you let THEM pull up to the front door?
why not pop a 50 cal round through the engin block of the truck pulling the catlle cars then kill THEM as they ran out w/ no cover among the scrub grass?
doesnt sound like much of an ambush to me.
but then again what do i know. i still have connections between my 2 brain halves.
Optical Serenity
New member
Its not due process Pipoman...when you barricade yourself in your house, when a warrant has been served, its called Obstruction of Justice.
I want to know just how many of you would also barricade yourselves here? I hope none, but from the sounds of this thread, the tinfoil hat wearing paranoia here is amazing.
I've always said, its threads like this and the wackos I meet at gun shows that scare me about this hobby I love so much.
Everything in moderation is good, but become fundamentalist and it goes downhill quickly. Imagine why people saying "Gun wackjob" all the time??? Because the LAW ABIDING NORMAL CITIZEN would never condone violating the law, barricading yourself inside your house, and firing back until you can have some sort of pre-trial review of the warrant being served.
And actually, I don't believe that any of you here are that stupid anyways...just a lot of smoke being blown to look macho. Here its the "cool" thing to be anti US Government, at any cost.
I want to know just how many of you would also barricade yourselves here? I hope none, but from the sounds of this thread, the tinfoil hat wearing paranoia here is amazing.
I've always said, its threads like this and the wackos I meet at gun shows that scare me about this hobby I love so much.
Everything in moderation is good, but become fundamentalist and it goes downhill quickly. Imagine why people saying "Gun wackjob" all the time??? Because the LAW ABIDING NORMAL CITIZEN would never condone violating the law, barricading yourself inside your house, and firing back until you can have some sort of pre-trial review of the warrant being served.
And actually, I don't believe that any of you here are that stupid anyways...just a lot of smoke being blown to look macho. Here its the "cool" thing to be anti US Government, at any cost.
Scott Conklin
New member
Where? We have those who understand the government was out of control in this situation, and a couple people who seem desperate to deny this. Maybe those couple really are paranoid, but otherwise...
Not in the least. Engage in criminal activity, do things the wrong way, pretend working for the government gives you some special power and hey, they got what they deserved.
You claimed the warrants were correct, they were not. Now you continue to claim they could have surrendered when it has already been pointed out to you the Jack Boots refused to allow this. Try to grasp facts and not what you want things to be, ok?
An amazingly foolish comment which continued to be beneath contempt, though not humor.
So they instead sent Ninjas with no legit warrants who fired first. The lack of tanks, to someone like you, is actually relevant?
There's that disgusting but oh so revealing claim yet again. It remains pathetic, but enlightening
But I have such hopes for you...
Well, so much for hope. The above says pretty much all that needs to be said about you and those like you: Whatever the government does and however it does it is perfectly acceptable to you because the other idea, that people might actually be right in resisting and refusing, is absolute anathema to you for some obscure, illogical and unsupportable reason related to emotions and not thought.
You were done with your first post. Too bad you didn't stop before your foolishness above.
Scott Conklin
New member
No evidence of this but, hey, if a claim is repeated often enough it aquires the ring of truth for the masses...
Scott Conklin
New member
NAIS is an issue that is hitting home with a huge number of people in this nation. FedGov is continuing with this registration of people and property and animals in spite of 100% opposition from everyone outside of corporate ag. It's unconstitutional and immoral. It will become the law, though.
For those of us who do not submit the results are predictable: Letters, visits, threats, fines and, eventually, legal action/warrants/armed Jack Boots.
My wife and I have discussed this, as have a LOT of other people in this country. This is the line. The last straw. We won't register, we won't pay and we won't submit, no matter what the final scenerio requires. I am not trying to hide this and I am a long way from the only person who has come to this decision. So you better get used to it.
BTW, the pointless and shallow labeling of all those who do not agree with your statist views as paranoid is nothing but a sign of a weak argument. We are not paranoid and nobody wears any tin hats(well, maybe the government-lovers) and claiming such doesn't refute the morally superior opinion. But feel free to continue, it IS humorous.
NedreckSavant
New member
I always understood this to be an issue between the right to go mind your own bidness on your own 77 acres of land with 200 of your closes friends while legally purchasing rifles for everyone Vs. the right of the government to stop you. Or are we operating under the assumption that trying to get off the grid with some (probably) kooky survivalists is automatically headed in the direction of doing something wrong and therefor need to be dealt with? In hindsight this could/should have been handled so much more differently...on the 'other' other hand, whoever was in control of the situation probably thought it was a stunning success as has probably become the standard operating procedure for dealing with 'these types'...
Hey garand, in hindsight, what were they doing illegally? I remember the made for tv movie where they showed david buying truckloads of guns & grenades (semi auto and inert...but who needs to know), but in reality, what did they do? Where there lathes and heavy duty machines for the manufacture of machine guns? Was anything incriminating ever recovered? Or is the shoebox full of auto-sears hidden next to the iraqi wmd's?
I just read this page trying to sell some waco video (http://www.waco-anewrevelation.com/making-waco.html) and it mentions this: Why were shots heard and empty shell casings recovered from an FBI sniper position – when the FBI claims they did not fire their weapons during the siege? And stationed at that position: a sniper notorious for his actions at Ruby Ridge.
The guy that shot the mother in the face from ruby ridge was there?!
Hey garand, in hindsight, what were they doing illegally? I remember the made for tv movie where they showed david buying truckloads of guns & grenades (semi auto and inert...but who needs to know), but in reality, what did they do? Where there lathes and heavy duty machines for the manufacture of machine guns? Was anything incriminating ever recovered? Or is the shoebox full of auto-sears hidden next to the iraqi wmd's?
I just read this page trying to sell some waco video (http://www.waco-anewrevelation.com/making-waco.html) and it mentions this: Why were shots heard and empty shell casings recovered from an FBI sniper position – when the FBI claims they did not fire their weapons during the siege? And stationed at that position: a sniper notorious for his actions at Ruby Ridge.
The guy that shot the mother in the face from ruby ridge was there?!
OS
Obstruction of Justice is a criminal charge requiring conviction through due process. Until the charge is adjudicated it is an allegation. The penalty for Obstruction of Justice is rarely more than a few days in jail, I am not aware of anyone convicted of O of J being sentenced to death.
My point is the hostage savers killed the hostages in the name of convenience. It was unnecessary and indefensible.
Did you watch the Waco hearings? You and GI are trying to justify an action taken which has never been successfully justified by those who made the decisions and took the action.
OS
Molon Labe, From My Cold Dead Hands, etc. actually mean something to many 2nd Amendment folks you find on TFL. Tinfoil hats? You said it not me...
Obstruction of Justice is a criminal charge requiring conviction through due process. Until the charge is adjudicated it is an allegation. The penalty for Obstruction of Justice is rarely more than a few days in jail, I am not aware of anyone convicted of O of J being sentenced to death.
My point is the hostage savers killed the hostages in the name of convenience. It was unnecessary and indefensible.
Did you watch the Waco hearings? You and GI are trying to justify an action taken which has never been successfully justified by those who made the decisions and took the action.
OS
Molon Labe, From My Cold Dead Hands, etc. actually mean something to many 2nd Amendment folks you find on TFL. Tinfoil hats? You said it not me...
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