Branch Davidians to be released

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Savage, let me see if I have this right...

On the one hand, we have a religious cult that believes the end times are here and expects armageddan to begin "any day now." These people expect the secular government to come and take them away. They are serious in their beliefs. Serious to the point of stockpiling weapons in order to defend themselves against their oppressors.

On the other hand, we have some federal agents, obsessed with making a name for themselves in order to get better funding, decide that these religious wackos are just the thing that's needed to accomplish the task at hand. Remember that this federal agency is known for doing things their way (not necessarily by the book). Known for getting revenge on any that oppose them, by any means, legal or otherwise.

Instead of taking out the cult leader in a peacable manner, which would have been easy to do, any day of the week. This agency decides they need better press and decide to raid the complex where the cult is headquartered. And let's just say that news of this raid has been leaked to the cultists.

Doesn't much matter who fired the first shot. Doesn't matter if the warrant was valid or not. Toss this salad together and what you get is explosive results.

That's the simplest I can make this, while trying to be fair to both sides. But...

To go up against cultists who believe in the manner they did with an armed force does nothing but play into those beliefs. To say that the BATF (and later, the FBI) did not know of the beliefs of the davidians, is to say that the BATF (and FBI) was even more inept than they were.

That stretches the governments credibility further than can possibly be stretched without breaking it entirely.
 
When the government is out to get you in a legal fashion or illegal you are going to lose. Oh you may fight it in court with all the money you have and maybe even win in court. You will have a drastic life change for the worse anyway.

Men will make up their own mind on an individual basis how far they will be pushed and how important life is to them.

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Once again, emotions get the better of some of us. :mad:

We don't do personal insults here at TFL (ad hominem attacks). Argue against the message but leave the messenger alone. Failure will at the least get the thread closed and a warning sent. At the worst, people will be banned.
 
Heck put yourself in the shoes of either side and ask what you would have done. Would you serve the warrant?Would you let the government kill your family when they come to take your guns and lifestyle? Would you gas and burn all those people, including the childeren? Could you go to Idaho and kill a woman holding her baby? Would you create by your actions the hatred of a man that would blow up a federal building? Well tell us.:eek: :D

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Pro-Davidians
azredhawk44, 44 AMP, psssniper, M14fan, tBlake08, 2nd Amendment, Csspecs, Crosshair, pipoman, invention 45, redhawk41, Eghad, marks655, Big Ruger, blume357, PSE, OuTcAsT, NedreckSavant, Fal 4 Me, Hugh Damright, steelheart, cuate, PigPen, Nicotine, 2ndamd, azfredv, Antipitas

Pro-BATFE
Garand Illusion,Optical Serenity, OneInTheChamber, Cmu Sniper, Savage10FP308

Not clear from post(s)
tjhands, invssgt, deanf, Hello123, model25

My count is 27 pro Davidians, 5 pro BATFE, 5 not clear.

I am wondering how many of the pro BATFE watched the Waco hearings on C-Span? (they re-ran the hearings at night) Also how many are LEOs?

I am not an LEO basher but I am also not an apologist for bad police actions.
 
As much as it sucks, our freedoms are limited. If you don't play ball by the rules, you are gonna regret it. You don't stockpile weapons(possibly illegaly) and expect the AFT to ignor you. Their job is to investigate such things. Furthermore, firing upon said ATF agents is not one of our inalienable rights(as much as some of use dislike them;) ).

Was the force excessive? Hell yes! But when you have a stand off like that with the world watching, you have to do something. Every hour they sat, the government and its officers lost face. The botched raid was an attempt to save face. It got people killed. I hope that the gov. learned a few things.

I am not for or against the davidians. You wanna have a compound? Have fun. Ultra Right wing veiws? Got some myself. Shoot some cops? Now you crossed the line.

Once you do that, every gun in the place is liable to be banned. And that effects me, which pisses me off. I know it is self-serving, but hey I am a selfish kinda guy.:cool:
 
pipoman: you have put me in the wrong column.

I am NOT for warrantless searches or for flimsily warranted searches or for serving warrants recklessly when they can be served safely.

BUT.

I know my size compared to the entire government's size. I cannot win by shootin' it out at my house. If I know it's the government at the door, I will put my hands in the air and call my lawyer and tell him he can take his collar off.

And that's with only me inside.

If I have a my child inside, I'll go even more peacefully. If I have somebody ELSE's child inside, and I survive, they have a valid vendetta against me for the rest of my life.

I'm not passing here on who was right or wrong about any issues spelled out in the warrant. That's for the courts and a jury to decide. But to put children in harm's way was wrong. That part was done by Koresh, et.al.

Children, flammable fluids, and fighting to the finish for beliefs do not mix.
 
They are just doing their job
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How many times has this justification been used to qualify poorly executed actions?

In the military world, a soldier has an obligation to follow orders...to a point. When those orders are legally or morally wrong, he has an obligation NOT to follow orders.

This brings me to a question, does the same apply to LE ?

At what point does your sense of right/wrong outweigh "The Job"?

Or is it just always assumed that since a judge said it was OK, then any action is automatically justified?

They are just doing their job
Click to expand...
 
invention_45 said:
I'm not passing here on who was right or wrong about any issues spelled out in the warrant. That's for the courts and a jury to decide. But to put children in harm's way was wrong. That part was done by Koresh, et.al.

Children, flammable fluids, and fighting to the finish for beliefs do not mix.
Click to expand...
Actually, you are.

The part you fail to understand is the belief part. It isn't "just" a belief. This is the same mistake made by the Feds. To the Davidians, it was a religious belief that held the core of their being.

To these people, surrendering to the feds was the same as surrendering to the Devil. Evil Incarnate. One does not subject their children to such evil... That would make the actions of surrender evil in and of itself and condemn these people to hell.

You can disagree with such beliefs, but your disagreement will not make their belief, false. Press the issue with force of arms and see what you get... Wait!... The Feds did press the issue!

The thing is, the Feds knew what the Davidians believed. They dismissed those religious convictions as nothing more than hocus-pocus. The more they pressed the issue, the more the Davidians fought against the Evil (as they saw it).

One day of siege or 500 days of siege. The only difference it made was to deepen an already held religious conviction, that Armageddan was upon them.

The Davidians did not take the fight to the Feds. That was against their beliefs. Yes, they armed themselves against the coming of Gog in the land of Magog (see Ezekiel 38 and 39 and also Revelation 20; Christian Bible) as they understood the end times. They also understood that they would most likely perish in the coming battle. They and their children. Better to fight on the side of God and perish, than to submit to the Beast.

To the Davidians, what happened, how they responded to being invaded, was moral and just.

Up until the point where the BATF invaded the compound (and if you call that raid anything else, you are failing to understand the Davidians and their religious convictions), there were several options that could have been taken to execute the warrant.

Once that line was crossed, there was no other choice left to the Davidians but to fight.

None of what I've just tried to explain was unknown to the Feds. The Feds just refused to understand that such beliefs cannot be trifled with. They made the enormous blunder of thinking that common sense would prevail. Common sense had never applied to religious beliefs ever before in history, what made them think it would apply now?
 
Aside from the factors mentioned previously, there is the issue of using US Military Forces for civilian law enforcement which the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 specifically prohibits.

The Posse Comitatus act of 1878 was passed to outlaw the use of federal troops for civilian law enforcement. The law made it a felony to use "any part of the Army or the Air Force...to execute the laws" except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress. That act, as amended, provides:

"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the army or Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined no more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

While the framers of the constitution would have found David Koresh repulsive, they would have been far more disturbed at, among other things, the use of the military against American citizens.

One of the reasons for the "law enforcement" disasters of February 28 and April 19, 1993, was that they were both run as military exercises, planned and executed with the advice of the U.S. Department of Defense. As Rep John Conyers mentioned in his initial impressions of the final assault, "The root cause of this problem was that it was considered a military operation, which it wasn't".


The above is quoted from David Kopel's book "NO MORE WACOS". The presence of the army personnel was slyly explained that they were there as "advisor's" only - which was pure BS. I worked for about a year with an Army Emergency Medical specialist physician who related to me how he and others from the Army training program for such specialists were sent to Waco to provide medical support for the assault well before it happened. Not only do "advisor's" not need medical support but, it was clear evidence the assault was not something that just "happened unexpectedly due to actions of the Branch Davidians" but was planned well in advance with the Department of Defense actively participating and not just advising.

We, as free American citizens, cannot ever allow this to happen again. If we do, we deserve whatever we get.:mad:
 
"it was clear evidence the assault was not something that just "happened unexpectedly due to actions of the Branch Davidians" but was planned well in advance with the Department of Defense actively participating and not just advising."
some people will never belive it was that.
regardless of what Koresh did, we do not assault when serving a Warrant. this was a planned military action from the begining to the end.
 
"A Government of the people, for the people and by the people"......remember.

It does not say soome people who are mainstream.

The analogy of the Native Americans works here. "They are savages that have no God!!!!!!!" The Govt would portray the many nations as one collective group....the "indians" (because Columbus thought he landed in India....lol). The Govt' of these fine United States (of which I am a proud member) held a propeganda war against the "indians" (too many nations to list) in which we were all to believe that they were savages and Godless. In actuality the land of America was considered sacred by many nations. When the Govt' showed up and "This peice of paper from the French (Louisiana Purchase) says that all this land belongs to the United States now. The Native Americans were like....."And who are these "French" that you speak of. For this land belongs to the Omaha, Cherokee, Sioux etc....not the "French". It was not the French land to sale to us. So, we took it from them....with force. Because we did not understand their life, traditions, and their religion. Does this make it right?

I love America. But, even the framers knew the dangers of the Govt becoming the Master and not the servant of the people. Anyone who defends the Govt in this post continues to assume that the Davidians were the servant and the Govt the master. IMHO I feel that is where you error. The BATF had the responsibility to end that conflict in a peaceful way. For they are the Govt of the people. They serve us.....not vice versa!

"To protect and serve"....The last word we need to add is ALL. I think the BATF was out to protect some of the majority mainstream people that control alot of funding (money$$$$) but in reality the constitution was designed for that small obscure groups of people out of the mainstream to be protected as well.

The Davidians were protecting their temple! My goodness. If the Vatican was under attack by the Italian govt would not the Catholics defend that temple? Would you hold that against them? What if the Morman Tabernacle was under attack by the BATF? Would the Morman people not defend that temple with their lives? Just because you do not understand their religion does not make them wrong and you right.....at least in this country. What. Because the Catholics and Mormans have been around longer and have more people that means their religions are more important than the Branch Davidians????? Not according to the Constitution.

Our Govt has errored before. It does not mean I love my country less than you and should therefore be kicked out, just because The Govt was wrong. I think someone said "then leave" or something to that effect.

Okay. Then the civil rights movement did nothing for us? Yeah, you're right the Govt wasn't wrong with that decision.......Oh wait a minute. At least one branch of the Govt was wrong because the Brown v. Board of Education decision by the Supreme Court basically said that the States were wrong? Which Govt do I support so that I do not feel compelled to leave and have the door not hit me on the (blank) on the way out?

Please advise what Govt you would like me to follow?

Oh and in this country we use to:
Burn people at the stake for being herotics or possessed.
drown people who we thought we witches, if they survive then they are witch if they die then OOPS. Guess they weren't a witch. OOPS, MY BAD. THOUGHT YOU WERE A WITCH.

WACO:
Our Govt lit the fires and when We the People tried to escape the flames of their temple We the People mowed them down with fully automatic weapons. My God how can anyone condone these acts?

I for one answer to no law that is not just in the eyes of the One. The One who gave life and the only One who is allowed to take it away. I have walked a man for his final walk on death row. Watch a man die and I think then you can appreciate the gift of life.

I do not understand the Davidians ways of life and society. But, they are entitled to "life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness", every bit as much as I am. "We hold these truths to be self-evident" Meaning that no law needs to grant us these rights. These rights have been given by the One who gave us lifeand are innate to our existence. All of us, (not just us people in the mainstreamm that have the money to dictate law makers to make the laws that suit us) are born with the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This was our declaration of independance from England.

Now, if YOU do not subscribe to these truths being self evident......Then, it is YOU who are in the wrong country my friend.....not me.

"Rightouness and truth are one in the same. If you try to seperate these two principles then you are indignant and no longer rightous"
 
Antipitas...

That's real good that the Davidians read the Bible and all! The only problem is that you can't just pick and choose the parts you like and ignore the rest. Do me a favor, please don't try and justify what these crazies did with the use of the Bible. It is wrong, and if you continue to do so, you may someday be punished for it.
 
Savage10FP308, re-read what Antipitas wrote. He did not attempt to justify the position of the Davidians (nor has anyone else here). It is an explanation of the Davidian's mind set.

Let's take this from hostage negotiation to negotiating with a bridge jumper. The LEO communicating with a bridge jumper wouldn't taunt the jumper about his cheating wife, financial ruin or what ever else brought the imbalanced person to the brink of suicide. He would use negotiating points which would disprove the jumpers assertions.

In Waco the BATFE knew the beliefs of the Davidians and chose to taunt those beliefs, bad idea.

Again I ask Savage...Did you watch the Waco hearings? The BATFE was saddled with a lot of the blame for the outcome even among the liberals on the panel. The ultimate action by the FBI and BATFE was indefensible, they couldn't even mount an argument in their own defense..
 
Savage10FP308 said:
That's real good that the Davidians read the Bible and all! The only problem is that you can't just pick and choose the parts you like and ignore the rest.
Click to expand...
Really? How many different Christian sects are there? How many of those "pick and choose" only those parts that are central to their beliefs?

The same may be said of Muslims, or Buddists or any other major religion that has a myriad of sects. They all do it.
Do me a favor, please don't try and justify what these crazies did with the use of the Bible.
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As pipoman said, go back and reread what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

Simply because I understand what they believed, does not in any way mean I approve or even accept their beliefs. I don't. I, personally, think they were nutso-wacko.
 
Wow!

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Main Entry: 1Chris?tian
Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek christianos, from Christos
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ


"Really? How many different Christian sects are there? How many of those "pick and choose" only those parts that are central to their beliefs?"
"The same may be said of Muslims, or Buddists or any other major religion that has a myriad of sects. They all do it."

"That was against their beliefs. Yes, they armed themselves against the coming of Gog in the land of Magog (see Ezekiel 38 and 39 and also Revelation 20; Christian Bible) as they understood the end times. They also understood that they would most likely perish in the coming battle. They and their children. Better to fight on the side of God and perish, than to submit to the Beast."


Antipitas, you are very wrong on this. Your post clearly says Christian Bible. You can't be part Christian. You can't pick and choose which part of the Bible you like and neglect the rest. Your uneducated post, coupled with the fact that you can't spell (Armageddan, Buddists), leads me to believe that you might be better off sitting this one out!:rolleyes:

Main Entry: Bud?dhism
Pronunciation: 'b?-"di-z&m, 'bu-
Function: noun
: a religion of eastern and central Asia growing out of the teaching of Gautama Buddha that suffering is inherent in life and that one can be liberated from it by mental and moral self-purification


Main Entry: Is?lam
Pronunciation: is-'l?m, iz-, -'lam, 'is-", 'iz-"
Function: noun
Etymology: Arabic islAm submission (to the will of God)
1 : the religious faith of Muslims including belief in Allah as the sole deity and in Muhammad as his prophet

These religions do not, AT ALL, believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. You are comparing apples to oranges. They twisted the Christian faith to serve their purpose. I have no doubt that they will be punished accordingly for their sins. This awful situation could have been avoided if they had just accepted the warrant and let the agents do their job. Once again, if they didn't like the laws of this country, then they should have moved somewhere else. They got what they deserved.
 
Let's see, I misspelled Armageddon and Buddhist (must be a linux thing as my spell checker passed them both... database corrected). So that leads you to believe I don't know what I'm talking about? You're too funny for words.

As for the comparisons, yes, all religious sects pick and choose what they believe, whether they are Christian religions or not.

Like it or not, Savage. If it were not true, all Christians would be of one single faith, instead of the 1200 sects that are recognized in the US alone*. Or the 34,000 recognized sects worldwide**.

At the beginning of Christianity there were 3 major movements:

Gnostics
Jewish Christians
Pauline Christians

While the Gnostics still survive, all the rest trace back to Pauline Christians.

Of the Paulines, there are 4 meta-groups:

Roman Catholicism,
Eastern Orthodoxy,
Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches,
Protestantism

It is from Protestantism that the vast majority of sects derive. Oh, and again, like it or not, the word "cult" can and is used in place of "sect" or "denomination."

A rather interesting topic that I have studied for years. But entirely out of place for this forum, except as it helps to understand the Davidians themselves.

Try reading what I write instead of pulling things out of context.


* J. Gordon Melton, Ed, "The Encyclopedia of American Religions," 6th edition, Gale Group, (1998).
** David B. Barrett, et al., "World Christian Encyclopedia : A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World," Oxford University Press, (2001)
 
i think someone is a little arrogant to think that if you type fast w/o care of spelling your not smart. i know men that will soon be gone from this world who are very smart and can barely spell their name.
a real idiot is a person who would suppose to know whats in a mans mind by judging his ability to spell.
 
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