Blackwater...

To the best of my knowlege the only use of lethal force by BW employees in NOLA was a case where one employee was shot and killed by a looter armed with a rifle stolen from a walmart. His fellow employees returned fire and killed the badguy. At the time the BW employees where walking through a parking lot.

Were there eyewitnesses to this incident? Or was it just what the BW mercs said happened? How do we know who shot first, otherwise?

The insinuation made by some that I would gladly act as a jackbooted thug trampling on the constitutional rights of citizens is quite frankly very insulting.

Good. Be insulted, then. You're a mercenary, and no amount of mincing words will change that basic fact. I suggest you read what the founding fathers had to say about mercenaries. Why, they're even mentioned in the Declaration of Independence!

"He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation."

Do you find that insulting, too?

Yes the money is a great inducement to me to put up with working 12 hours shifts on an unairconditioned post in 120 degree heat, but the reason I got on that plane was because I wanted to make a difference and help out what I see as a just cause and a fight for our way of life and Western Civalization against people that would like to see the word plunged into a new dark age.

That same goal can be accomplished by going into your local recruiting office. It's just that it pays less, you have to follow orders, and you have to follow the Geneva Conventions.

Rationalize all day long. You're still a mercenary.
 
Manedwolf,

All I know about the incident with the dead looter is what my friend told me he heard from someone who was there. I am sure there was an investigation though and as such it will be a matter of public record. You could try searching for any info you can find and posting it here. I would be interested in reading anything official on the incident.

Our founding fathers also hired mercenaries to train the revolutionary army. Hypocracy in action I guess. Shame to see it from such great men, but when your troops are getting slaughtered on the field and dying in droves in camp due to disease it is much smarter to hire professionals to fix the problem. One more example of what happens when idealism runs head on into unflinching reality. Also the way I read that quote the major problem they have with the mercenaries reffered to is that they are working for King George and not the Continental Congress. In fact most of the quote seems directed at the employer not the poor schleps doing the job.

There is a thread somewhere on this site or THR detailing my experiences with going to a recruiter shortly after graduating from college. Suffice it to say I am not healthy enough for the job. BTW US military members do not have to follow the Geneva convention. They have to follow the Uniform Code of Military Justice, an entirely different document. My ROE is somewhat more strict then that of the US military. And what in God's name makes you think I do not have to follow orders? I have to folow the orders of my supervisors at the company I work for and the military members in my chain of command as well as abide by all post and general orders of the installation I am on. It is also smart for me to do anything a member of the US military asks of me as long as it does not contradict the orders passed down to us from the military command cell. The only thing I do not have to do is salute. In addition to that I have to follow all laws and regulations of the country in which I am working.

Fine have it your way I am a mercenary. Wonder if I can use that as an opening line to pick up girls when I get back to the states. Certainly more impressive then telling them I am a security guard.
 
Mercenaries or not, some of the finest citizens our society has produced are currently employed by Blackwater.

I wish them a safe return and a fat bank account.
 
Mercenaries or not, some of the finest citizens our society has produced are currently employed by Blackwater.

Nope. Some of the finest citizens our society has produced are actively serving in the military, or retired from it. And if they want to serve again, they re-up.

If they have other priorities, like fat wallets and less oversight, they sign up as mercs.

I don't consider them "fine citizens" at all. Maybe some are decent people, but there's also the greedy, thugs, and downright bloodthirsty among them, the sort who actually enjoy killing and getting paid a hell of a lot for it. Don't pretend they don't exist...because they do. Soliders, our soldiers, have reported on incidents of that nature they've witnessed.

This issue is going to come to a head the first time a bunch of Blackwater mercs get involved in a friendly fire incident and kill members of the US military...either in a "security" situation or indiscriminate fire from the gunner in one of their fleet of "little birds" they have over there. The lack of oversight there all but guarantees that that will be a unfortunate certainty, sooner or later.
 
Re-up? My personal experience is that many of these cats served multiple enlistments. They have a skill set. They should get paid for it.

Bloodthirsty? An E-3 with minimal combat experience and Counterstrike in his barracks room is bloodthirsty. To be a successful business, Blackwater personnel have to operate on a far higher plane.

You can't just waltz into the Blackwater offices and get hired. It takes experience and professionalism.

Not sure where you're getting your info, Maned'.
 
Manedwolf, your vitriol is unwarranted

In an all volunteer army, everybody is a "contractor" or a mercenary to the extent it's a job done for some degree of financial benefit and pay.

Many of the people in national guard and reserves who suddenly started complaining about overseas duty when war started joined up in the peace time for money and benefits.

During Civil War, high percentage of the guys in the regular units were recent foreign immigrants. They needed the money when they were fresh off the boat with very little money, resources, and family support in US.

Quite often, security guards can do the jobs of the police much more cheaply and efficiently because of the way they are organized and utilized, as well as due to the fact that if they don't do a satisfactory job, the security guard firm will lose the contract(get booted). Note that even the US federal government employs more security guards than police. It's simply more cost efficient even for the inefficient government.

As for possible friendly fire incident with US military and less oversight, anybody who has done a small team training in a close quarter urban environment knows how easy friendly/accidental shooting is. I've heard of police tactical team shooting each other in urban environment and they are lot better trained than average soldier.

Remember the Tillman incident with US Army in Afghanistan? He was a leading a company of US Army Rangers. He was killed by multiple US 5.56 rounds to the head by other US soldiers.

Here is an informative article about Tillman's death and coverup:
http://www.insidebayarea.com/news/ci_6477789


Was Tillman murdered by own troops?
Documents reveal medical examiner's doubts, other details in NFL-star-turned-Ranger's death
By Martha Mendoza, Associated Press

insideBayArea.com said:
SAN FRANCISCO — Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors — whose names were blacked out — said the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.
...
...
-No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.
Continues here.

I remember being told by a retired Special Forces major that if he was a contractor in Iraq, how he would be afraid of being shot by US armed services member by mistake.

Believe it or not, casualties from friendly fire during wartime are significant but underreported.

The best oversight is marketplace. When contractors misbehave or do not perform adequately, fire the contracting firm and charge the individual contractors with specific criminal charges that they are guilty of violating.

As for desire to kill, it's an innate desire that exist in most men in one form or other. Due to society and our parents, that desire gets tempered as we grow up(kill only under morally justifiable circumstances). Col. Grossman in his book "On Killing" covered it.

With government agencies, very little changes when just the head of the agency is replaced and/or individual officers are reprimanded because the existing infrastructure remains the same.

--John

Dr. David R. Henderson said:
In his testimony before the commission, General Westmoreland said he did not want to command an army of mercenaries.

Mr. Friedman interrupted, "General, would you rather command an army of slaves?" Mr. Westmoreland replied, "I don't like to hear our patriotic draftees referred to as slaves."

Mr. Friedman then retorted, "I don't like to hear our patriotic volunteers referred to as mercenaries. If they are mercenaries, then I, sir, am a mercenary professor, and you, sir, are a mercenary general; we are served by mercenary physicians, we use a mercenary lawyer, and we get our meat from a mercenary butcher."
 
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Soliders, our soldiers, have reported on incidents of that nature they've witnessed.
psst

Soldier, our soldiers, have also done the very same things. There are those in the military who signed just because they wanted to kill people, too.
Wearing a uniform does not make one an upstanding individual and being unable to wear the uniform due to health reasons does not make one any less of an upstanding individual.

I still have my reservations about private armies but let's not pretend that our boys are all wings and halos.
 
B/W

I'm not going to get into arguments about this, as we all should. I did a little research on this subject, so here are some interesting links about NO and B/W.
www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091005a.shtml
www.thenation.com/doc/20051010/scahill or www.thenation.com/doc/20070402/scahill Watch the following website, they will try to scan you www.blackwaterusa.com they tried to read my files, but were barred.
When the marines requested MRAP's for Iraq, Bush only sent 100 of thousands requested, Blackwater got more than they did.
The problem here is that B/W and Wakenhut along with numerous other contractors, as well as FEMA make up our shadow government, and that is what all Americans should have a problem with. If FEMA or B/W come down our street, look out.
 
Re-up? My personal experience is that many of these cats served multiple enlistments. They have a skill set. They should get paid for it.

Bloodthirsty? An E-3 with minimal combat experience and Counterstrike in his barracks room is bloodthirsty. To be a successful business, Blackwater personnel have to operate on a far higher plane.

You can't just waltz into the Blackwater offices and get hired. It takes experience and professionalism.

Not sure where you're getting your info, Maned'.


+1^^^

Maned,
I'm not sure where your personal vendetta against these men comes from, but you certainly have a lot of wrong info and personal opinion you try to pass as fact.
You still haven't bothered to answer my question about your belief concerning other people gaining skills and experience paid for by the military and leaving the military at the first opportunity to make more money using those skills. Career fields such as pilots, lawyers, doctors, civil engineers, lab techs, x-ray techs etc.
 
You still haven't bothered to answer my question about your belief concerning other people gaining skills and experience paid for by the military and leaving the military at the first opportunity to make more money using those skills. Career fields such as pilots, lawyers, doctors, civil engineers, lab techs, x-ray techs etc.

Apples and oranges. They're not being paid to go kill people without any oversight.

And personal vendetta? If you can't see the inherent dangers and just utter wrongness, in a "what the founding fathers wanted" sense, of private corporate armies, well, then I can't really explain it any further.
 
You really think there's much oversight in the middle of a chaotic warzone? Or even a destroyed US city? Letting the mercs report on "what happened" is letting foxes mind the henhouse.

I will never trust someone who fights for the money, not for country and Constitution. I find the existence of mercenaries to be repugnant, and consider them to be a good reason why ordinary Americans need to be well-armed. Because while I do not think the military would ever turn on American civilians, I would not trust mercenaries to not do just that.

If the price is right, when loyalty, well-armed loyalty can be bought, the door to abuse is open wide.

blackwater.jpg

Not in my town.
 
Apples and oranges. They're not being paid to go kill people without any oversight.

Neither are the security contractors. They are being paid to protect a client. The fact that their job requires guns has no bearing. Their are pilots who leave with training to fly for security contractors, every contracting company has lawyers who work for them and some have come from the military, medics leave the military to work for BW and the other companies. It's apples to apples.
 
You really think there's much oversight in the middle of a chaotic warzone? Letting the mercs report on "what happened" is letting foxes mind the henhouse.
Which is the same exact problem we have with some of our soldiers. Hmm.
 
And personal vendetta? If you can't see the inherent dangers and just utter wrongness, in a "what the founding fathers wanted" sense, of private corporate armies, well, then I can't really explain it any further.


As has already been pointed out, the founding father used mercenaries as well. They have been involved in every war since the beginning of time. You talk about the founding fathers as if you were there.

As to your comment about oversight. When a contractor is involved in an deadly force incident they don't investigate themselves. So it's not the fox watching the hen house. Agencies within the DOS, DOJ and in some cases the DOD do the investigation. The same agencies who investigate when the military has an incident that needs to be investigated. Once again, you're showing your lack of knowledge on the subject.
 
I will never trust someone who fights for the money, not for country and Constitution.
Then you wouldn't trust a great number of current soldiers and past veterans because there are and have always been people who enlisted because it was easier than getting a job, going to college or better yet military service gave them money for doing it in the first place.
 
When a contractor is involved in an deadly force incident they don't investigate themselves.

AFAIK, the contractors were not required to report incidents in the conflict zones. Did that change?

And what incentive would they have to report an incident if they didn't take any casualties?
 
Maned,
Hate to burst your bubble with the pic you entitled Blackwater, but those aren't even BW guys. :rolleyes:
Not sure which company logo that is on their shirt, but it's not Blackwater.
 
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