Blackwater...

I have 4 friends who work for Blackwater, 2 in the security field, and 2 corporate. If I was a litlte more in shape I'd be all over it. One of buddies is on his way to a 3 month tour to the green zone.

There is also a GREAT book on Blackwater, all about their history, their founder(s) and what they have in store for themselves.

Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill


It's a great read, check it out if you have the time. Your local libraries may have it.

PLUS... living near Blackwater like I do, and with friends there, I can get on their ranges:p
 
You'd be surprised by the level of education and experience those untrained masses have, even before they joined the military.
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I'll take you a step further, buzz. It's the American military that is actually training the Blackwater guys. If you want a job at Blackwater, it's basically a prerequisite that you have had U.S. military operational experience. So, there's a strange paradox at work here: The U.S. military pours time and money into training up some of the best fighters in the world. THEN, Blackwater comes along, offers mucho dinero and great employee care to these trained killing machines (Hooyah!), and all of the U.S.'s top-notch soldiers go running into the private sector.

No, I'm not dogging the U.S. military's "intelligence." They train GREAT warriors. But, their lame, bureaucratic human resources agencies are simply not able to hang on to their trained fighters as employees.

It's a bizarre situation...
 
One thing everyone is missing here is the fact that the vast majority of those evil Blackwater security guys are independent contractors who are sub-contracted through Blackwater. Kind of like a general contractor subcontracting the electrical system in your house. The majority of Blackwater employees are trainers at their facilities in Moyock and Mt Carroll etc.
As to the comments about them being fair game. What was their status? Were they deputized? Were they hired by the City, State, or Federal government to provide security, what ROE were they given by the government that hired them. Like I said it's no different than any other company, you get bad apples, but in any business they usually don't last long in the PMC business with a reputable company. The reputable companies don't need to put up with baffoons when they have a huge pool of experienced, professional talent to pull from.
For those that try to portray them as money hungry dealers of death. The money draws people to the business, nobody would deny that they get paid well. They do a dangerous job and should be paid well. The PSS guys are guarding State Department employees, Iragi government officials and Iraqi government facilities is that now a job for the DOD?
Does that make the computer programmer who leaves IBM in New York to go work for Apple at their plant in China a money grubbing traitor because he will make more money?
I don't work for Blackwater, but I've trained in their facilities several times, stayed in their bunkhouse many nights and have not run into one guy who was anything but a normal guy providing for himself and his family using the skills he learned while in the military and or an LEO.
I haven't heard anyone complaining about the X-ray tech who leaves the military and uses their training to secure a more lucrative job. Or the lawyer who uses the military to pay for law school then gets out at the first opportunity to work for a big law firm and make more money.
Oh wait, those jobs are the types of jobs you're supposed to have:rolleyes:
 
Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill
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:barf:

The name of a book like that should make all freedom-loving Americans want to stock up on ammo.

Seriously. :P


They have NO oath to defend and uphold the Constitution, therefore they have no place operating within the sovereign borders of the United States.

I have the utmost respect for members of the armed forces. I have zero respect for mercenaries. You can call them "contractors", which is like calling an illegal alien an "undocumented American"....they're MERCENARIES. Hessians.

If someone wants to serve again, the re-up age is very high now. If someone wants to be a merc for a fat paycheck...well...they won't have my respect, ever. I'll buy lunch for soldiers in uniform. Mercs, I keep a wary eye on instead.
 
....they're MERCENARIES. Hessians.
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Yeah. But, plenty of Hessians fought and died for American Independence. America has used mercenary help in its military since the beginning.

Not advocating. Not saying it's right. Just offering the point-counterpoint.

(Blackwater fascinates me...)
 
good paper on the subject

An Economic Perspective on Mercenaries, Military Companies, and the Privatization of Forces by Dr. Jurgen Brauer

1. all things being equal, contractors are probably being overpaid now despite danger risks right now, due to relative lack of competition.

Enlistment in FFL(French Foreign Legion) by people from Eastern Europe soared due to relative lack of economic opportunities in their home countries when Communism collapsed.

2. time and cost of training for military and police is relatively low compared to other occupations.

3. privatization of military and police is a fact.

4. corrupt military and police: it's actually harder to correct a government organization than private ones. If you just replace the head, be it a general, chief of police, or head of FBI, the existing infrastructure with the original culture that was involved with the original problem still stays in place.

There are public military organization and agencies with corruption and efficiency problem. There are private ones. Ability to fire and hire a replacement private agency/contractors provide a more reliable means of accountability.
 
They have NO oath to defend and uphold the Constitution, therefore they have no place operating within the sovereign borders of the United States.

I have the utmost respect for members of the armed forces. I have zero respect for mercenaries. You can call them "contractors", which is like calling an illegal alien an "undocumented American"....they're MERCENARIES. Hessians.

If someone wants to serve again, the re-up age is very high now. If someone wants to be a merc for a fat paycheck...well...they won't have my respect, ever. I'll buy lunch for soldiers in uniform. Mercs, I keep a wary eye on instead.
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You still haven't answered my question. Why is this different than others using their military training to gain employment?
Using them to provide security in the U.S. is a perfectly acceptable job for a security company which is what they are. Just because they have better trained personnel, better weapons and pay more than the minimum wage Wackenhut guard makes doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to work here. Can you tell me what other security company has 14,000 people at their disposal who will move at a moments notice?
All of these men have served, many in the most elite units the country has to offer. You like to praise them when they are elite soldiers and pass judgement when they no longer do your bidding:rolleyes:
Just because you don't like their chosen profession doesn't make you right.
Keep your wary eye out, one of them just might live next door to you:eek:
 
1. all things being equal, contractors are probably being overpaid now despite danger risks right now, due to relative lack of competition.
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The pay has dropped 50%-66% over the last few years. After 9/11 it wasn't unheard of for guys to make $1000-$1500 per day at BW now they are paying $550. There are still people making a $1000 plus a day, but they are the exception not the rule. There are more people in the employment pool to choose from etc.
 
They have NO oath to defend and uphold the Constitution, therefore they have no place operating within the sovereign borders of the United States.
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Umm... actually they sware in to nearly the exact oath that US military members swear in with at MEPS. And it includes the protect and uphold the constitution part.

But in the field, their contractor status leaves them exempt from following the geneva conventions. It makes it a lot easier to get in and do what they have to do rather than be held up by red tape.
 
DonR

it's still too high relative to job requirement and danger risk.

Increased privatization will result in higher output for public military and police, and higher degree of price competition (lower contracting price) for private military and police.

PS
same economic factors apply to public schools BTW. Studies showed that performance of sheriff's dept. actually improved when faced with loss of contract with other entities, public or private. Public schools suddenly started improving when faced with competition from private schools via vouchers.
 
I would have to disagree. They have training, experience and a skill set that is worth money. They are being paid to potentially give their life. Many have a hard time finding insurance because of their profession. They are being compensated for all of the things that would have to be paid if they were in the military. If they aren't working a contract they aren't getting a paycheck. There are ups and downs to both sides.
I've always thought the military pay was too low given what you're asked to potentially give. But then we would have people screaming that the military is just doing it for the money and has no allegiance to their country. I say this while currently on active duty with 20+ years of service.
 
DonR, I have no problem with them being used to guard private property. I do have a problem with them being used on public property. They have no authority there. And they shouldn't. They're not trained as officers of the peace, they're trained to use force. "Collateral damage" from the use of combat weaponry by civilian mercenaries on US soil to solve problems is not acceptable.

But in the field, their contractor status leaves them exempt from following the geneva conventions. It makes it a lot easier to get in and do what they have to do rather than be held up by red tape.
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Yeah, those pesky "quaint" Geneva conventions... :rolleyes:
Umm... actually they sware in to nearly the exact oath that US military members swear in with at MEPS. And it includes the protect and uphold the constitution part.
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Really. So...if they're working on contract for, say, a company in Dubai, or for the House of Saud, they're still swearing loyalty to the US. Really. Huh.

All of these men have served, many in the most elite units the country has to offer. You like to praise them when they are elite soldiers and pass judgement when they no longer do your bidding
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My bidding? What sort of false premise is that? The military does the bidding of the commanders, generals, and the commander in chief, whatever is necessary to safeguard the nation and its interests. And if someone wants to serve, they can re-up. Working as a merc is a choice made instead, to go for a bigger paycheck and loyalty to a corporation, instead of further service to the nation. It's saying that instead of being willing to kill if necessary to protect the country and its freedoms, you're willing to kill for money.

Keep your wary eye out, one of them just might live next door to you
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Oh, I do. Because if any abusive government ever tried martial law, I think the military wouldn't go along with it. Blackwater mercs? They'd be doing the door-to-door JBT thing as soon as the pen was uncapped to sign their paycheck.

As I said, loyalty to whomever signs your paycheck, rather than to your nation, is a dangerous thing. And I do not trust Erik Prince at all.
 
DonR, I have no problem with them being used to guard private property. I do have a problem with them being used on public property. They have no authority there. And they shouldn't. They're not trained as officers of the peace, they're trained to use force.
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But that is where you are wrong. If they are contracted for security on public property they do have authority to secure the area they are entrusted. Many public buildings as well as federal buildings are currently having security provided by private companies. My wife just finished working for one that provided security for federal and state courthouses as well as the social security department. Many are trained as police officers, they have quite a few former swat officers who they contract, but it's irrelevant since they were hired as a security force. Another part of the problem is that anytime someone sees a "contractor" they assume they are BW employees. Blackwater isn't the only company that had security guys in NOLA or in Iraq, but everytime there is an incident they get the heat since they are the biggest.
 
Manedwolf, i am with you. if they try to come on my property, i will respond with appropriate force. I am in the military, and we have extreme limits on what we can do. If some private yahoo carrying anything comes on my property and isnt police, sheriff, military, etc, they are getting a watchful eye and possibly more depending on their actions.

no matter what anybody says, their is little enough accountability of sworn officials, let alone "contractors".

by the way, i am not a big fan of armed security guards either. the guy driving the brinks truck i get.....the guy driving through the neighborhood in a ford taurus with yellow lights on top playing cop i cant stand. it was said best in Gross Pointe Blank by the armed security guard guy. "I am not a law enforcement figure, my badge has no meaning. It is just something my company makes me wear. I am only here to enforce company policy". Thats the problem. we have armed civilians standing the gates and patrolling the base i live on, along with MA's. I think they should all be gotten rid of and put military people back into doing their jobs. (that is another sore spot with me, and not directly related to the post at hand, so i will leave it alone).

edited to add: sorry for the rant, but stuff like this has been bugging me for a while now and i needed to get it off my chest.

Jamie
 
If they are contracted for security on public property they do have authority to secure the area they are entrusted. Many public buildings as well as federal buildings are currently having security provided by private companies.
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While I object to that as well, being that those buildings are supposed to be ours, I mean more when they're used to secure public areas like outdoor areas, public roads and other places I have every right to be. That's what they did after Katrina.

If a member of the military or police tells me to do something or to not be somewhere in a disaster area, I will comply if it's a reasonable request. They have authority traceable to the Constitution and innumerable laws to do so. But I have absolutely no reason to comply with the orders of a civilian mercenary if I am on public property. And if I'm on private property, my property, all laws of castle doctrine apply, I believe.

And yes, I know there's other mercenary corporations. DynCorp has done even more egregious things, having been indicted for running a child sex ring in Bosnia, but they're still contracted for various activities as well.
 
Man

Man, I wish I got this many responses when I made a thread about PMCs months ago. I guess I'm just a thread killer.

I still don't know how I feel about them in regards to seeing them in the sandbox (not BW, but Aegis, Armor Group) but I agree with Manedwolf about how they shouldn't be given authority on our streets and against the people. If they are hired as protection or security for some official (which is their purpose), then that's absolutely fine. They can have whatever weapons they like and use them IF a threat is posed to whomever or whatever they are protecting and only then.

I don't know the veracity of those who said that the BW guys were seizing weapons, etc. down in New Orleans but I completely disagree with that.

As far as Geneva Conventions while overseas, they and other PMCs didn't have to follow it initially but after cries of indiscriminate and wanton chaos and destruction reportedly committed by these people they are required to follow the Geneva Convention now. At least, that is the last I heard about the subject.
 
If someone wants to serve again, the re-up age is very high now. If someone wants to be a merc for a fat paycheck...well...they won't have my respect, ever. I'll buy lunch for soldiers in uniform. Mercs, I keep a wary eye on instead.
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Of course if someone has a viable skill and decides they would rather hire themselves out to a corporation who they can quit if they disagree with it rather than enlist in the US armed forces where they must carry out any order and policy, no matter how stupid and ludicrous, why shouldn't they?

If you decide to work for Blackwater you have some control over your destiny, if you go to the US army you have none... I can see why plenty of vets choose to hire on, can't you?
 
Yeah, those pesky "quaint" Geneva conventions...
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Actually they fall under the UCMJ the same as the military as of last fall.

Really. So...if they're working on contract for, say, a company in Dubai, or for the House of Saud, they're still swearing loyalty to the US. Really. Huh.
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We're talking about Blackwater. If they are working a U.S. company they still fall under the UCMJ no matter the country they are in.
My bidding? What sort of false premise is that? The military does the bidding of the commanders, generals, and the commander in chief, whatever is necessary to safeguard the nation and its interests. And if someone wants to serve, they can re-up. Working as a merc is a choice made instead, to go for a bigger paycheck and loyalty to a corporation, instead of further service to the nation. It's saying that instead of being willing to kill if necessary to protect the country and its freedoms, you're willing to kill for money.
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False premise, the U.S. military serves the citizens of the U.S. The CinC approves orders, commanders issue orders for the security of U.S. citizens. We do the bidding of the U.S. citizen.

Oh, I do. Because if any abusive government ever tried martial law, I think the military wouldn't go along with it. Blackwater mercs? They'd be doing the door-to-door JBT thing as soon as the pen was uncapped to sign their paycheck.
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I always love it when the JBT comes out, that means the person is frustrated because they are speaking about something they don't know to be fact. In essence they are talking out their six.

As I said, loyalty to whomever signs your paycheck, rather than to your nation, is a dangerous thing. And I do not trust Erik Prince at all.
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How are they not loyal to their nation? Because they use their military training to their advantage? They are patriots no matter how you want to slice it.


I guess the fact that you won't answer what you think about others leaving the military and using the training they received to their advantage says a lot. You seem to be ok with it as long as it's not a bunch a scary guys with guns.:rolleyes:
 
If people have a real problem with the government outsourcing security work within the USA then push for legislation either banning operation of governemnt hired security contractors within the USA outright or limiting it to the protection of Federal Facilities.

If other nations have an issue with them then pass the same laws and enforce them.

It is up to you to insist this of your legislator, otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
 
If people have a real problem with the government outsourcing security work within the USA then push for legislation either banning operation of governemnt hired security contractors within the USA outright or limiting it to the protection of Federal Facilities.

If other nations have an issue with them then pass the same laws and enforce them.

It is up to you to insist this of your legislator, otherwise you are just blowing hot air.
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+1
Then all of you who are against outsourcing security work such as the kind BW does should enlist and stay in until retirement age, so you can help with the security the PMCs aren't providing.

And so there is no mistake. I do agree that they have no business entering private property such as your house.
 
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